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World's Worst Warships?

lobosrul5 said:
Yeah... and I know someone mentioned it upthread, but the Zumwaut (DDG-1000). Lets spend billions on a ship thats main role is going to be shore bombardment. Because aerial bombing hasn't been proven to be effective... oh wait yeah it has.

And the gun is unusable.

https://news.usni.org/2018/01/11/no...destroyer-gun-system-navy-monitoring-industry

So it was just an extremely expensive new VLS missile launcher platform???
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Somewhat remarkably for the US DOD, they capped the procurement at three and got more DDG51's. Too bad they didn't do that for the LCS and get more FFG7's, perhaps with a better missile system.

The DD963 class, perhaps ironically developed under Admiral Zumwalt, was another procurement failure. Designed to have twin-rail missile launchers and 5-inch guns fore and aft, it wound up with the obsolescent ASROC launcher and a kind of pathetic Sea Sparrow launcher. Which had to be manually reloaded. Budget cuts FTW!
We toured one about 1980. I was quite blindsided by how little the sailor giving us the tour thought of her capabilities and how completely vulnerable she was to attack by a small armed helicopter or light military aircraft.
Replacement of the ASROC with a VLS system improved them, but still not a great class.
 
All surface ships are vulnerable to attack by helicopters and aircraft.
That's why you have the carriers and shore based air cover (for those close enough)
By the time you are having to use your own aa things have gone wrong.

I speak from first hand knowledge.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
A full list of the fire support ships off Normandy.

Omaha Bombardment Group
Battleships
USS Arkansas (BB 33). Wyoming class, commissioned 1912.
USS Texas (BB 35). New York class, commissioned 1914.

Cruisers
HMS Bellona. Bellona-class light cruiser, commissioned 1943.
HMS Glasgow. Southampton class, commissioned 1937.
FFL Georges Leygues (French). La Glossonairre–class light cruiser, commissioned 1937.
FFL Montcalm (French). La Glossonaire–class light cruiser, commissioned 1937.

Destroyers
USS Baldwin (DD 624). Livermore class, commissioned 1943. • USS Carmick (DD 493). Livermore class, commissioned 1942.
USS Doyle (DD 494). Livermore class, commissioned 1942.
USS Emmons (DD 457/DMS 22). Ellyson class, commissioned 1941/44, sunk off Okinawa 1945.
USS Frankford (DD 497). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Harding (DD 625/DMS 28). Ellyson class, commissioned 1943/44.
USS McCook (DD 496). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Satterlee (DD 626). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Thompson (DD 627). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
Destroyer Escorts
HMS Melbreak. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Talybont. Hunt class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Tanatside. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.

Utah Bombardment Group

Battleship
USS Nevada (BB 36). Nevada class, commissioned 1916.

Cruisers
HMS Black Prince. Bellona-class light cruiser, commissioned 1943.
HMS Enterprise. E-class light cruiser, commissioned 1926.
HMS Hawkins. Hawkins class, commissioned 1919.
USS Quincy (CA 71). Baltimore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Tuscaloosa (CA 37). Astoria class, commissioned 1934.
Monitor
HMS Erebus. Erebus class, commissioned 1916.

Destroyers
USS Butler (DD 636/DMS 29). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942.
USS Corry (DD 463). Gleaves class, commissioned 1942, sunk 6 June.
USS Fitch (DD 462/DMS 25). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Forrest (DD 461/DMS 24). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Gerhardi (DD 637/DMS 30). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Herndon (DD 638). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Hobson (DD 464/DMS 26). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Shubrick (DD 639). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.


Destroyer Escorts
USS Bates (DE 68/APD 47). Buckley class, commissioned 1943.
USS Rich (DE 695). Buckley class, commissioned 1943, sunk 8 June.

Sloop
HNMS Soemba (Dutch). Flores class, commissioned 1926.

Gold Bombardment Group

Light Cruisers
HMS Argonaut. Dido class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Ajax. Leander class, commissioned 1935.
HMS Emerald. Emerald class, commissioned 1926.
HMS Orion. Leander class, commissioned 1934.

Destroyers
HMS Cattistock. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Cottesmore. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Grenville. G class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Jervis. J class, commissioned 1939.
ORP Krakowiak (Polish). Hunt class, commissioned 1941.
HMS Pytchley. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Ulster. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Ulysses. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Undaunted. U class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Undine. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Urania. U class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Urchin. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Ursa. U class, commissioned 1944.

Sloop
HNMS Flores (Dutch). Flores class, commissioned 1926.

Bombardment and gunfire support ships in the British and Canadian sectors were:

Juno Bombardment Group

Cruisers
HMS Belfast. Edinburgh class, commissioned 1938.
HMS Diadem. Bellona class light cruiser, commissioned 1944.

Destroyers
HMCS Algonquin. V class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Bleasdale. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
FFL La Combattante (French). Hunt class, commissioned 1942, lost in 1945.
HMS Faulknor. F class, commissioned 1935.
HMS Fury. F class, commissioned 1934. Sunk 21 June 1944.
HNoMS Glaisdale (Norwegian). Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Kempenfelt. W class, commissioned 1943.
HMCS Sioux. V class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Stevenstone. Hunt class, commissioned 1943.

Sword Bombardment Group

Battleships
HMS Ramilles. Royal Sovereign class, commissioned 1917.
HMS Warspite. Queen Elizabeth class, commissioned 1916.
U.S. Navy battleship Nevada bombarding the invasion beaches: Martin K.A. Morgan.


Cruisers
HMS Arethusa. Arethusa class light cruiser, commissioned 1935.
HMS Danae. D-class light cruiser, commissioned 1918.
OPD Dragon (Polish). Dragon-class light cruiser, commissioned 1917, torpedoed 8 June.
HMS Frobisher. Hawkins class, commissioned 1924.
HMS Mauritius. Fiji-class light cruiser, commissioned 1941.

Destroyers
HMS Eglington. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Kelvin. K class, commissioned 1939.
HMS Middleton. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Saumarez. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Scorpion. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Scourge. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Serapis. S class, commissioned 1943.
ORP Slazak (Polish). Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HNoMS Stord (Norwegian). S class, commissioned 1943.
HNoMS Svenner (Norwegian). S class, commissioned 1944, lost 6 June.
HMS Swift. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Verulam. V class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Virago. V class, commissioned 1943.

Monitor
HMS Roberts. Roberts class, commissioned 1941.

https://www.historyonthenet.com/naval-artillery
Click to expand...

Weren't the Nelson's also present?
 
Nelson wasn't in the bombardment fleet. She arrived on the 11th as a relief ship to allow others to retire for resupply. She spent 7 days providing fire support and retired for resupply on the 18th but triggered two acoustic mines. She was sent to the USA for repair.
 
Trebuchet said:
The DD963 class, perhaps ironically developed under Admiral Zumwalt, was another procurement failure. Designed to have twin-rail missile launchers and 5-inch guns fore and aft, it wound up with the obsolescent ASROC launcher and a kind of pathetic Sea Sparrow launcher. Which had to be manually reloaded. Budget cuts FTW!
We toured one about 1980. I was quite blindsided by how little the sailor giving us the tour thought of her capabilities and how completely vulnerable she was to attack by a small armed helicopter or light military aircraft.
Replacement of the ASROC with a VLS system improved them, but still not a great class.
Click to expand...

That's not quite true.

There were supposed to be 2 distinct versions from the beginning with a 3rd (an upgrade path) to follow. There was as I recall DX, the main production model and a dedicated fleet ASW platform to replace FRAM Gearing destroyers.
Then there was I believe it was called DXG which was AAW oriented. It would have had Mk 26 multi-role missile launchers fore and aft with a 3 channel SAM fire control system, an 8" MCLWG and a 5" gun, and fewer ASW features (no towed sonar).
The third path was a mid-life upgrade of DX (DX Mod?) which would have seen the ASROC and Sea Sparrow launchers replaced by Mk 26 launchers and a 2-channel SAM fire control system without a dedicated long range search radar (SPS-48 only, no SPS-40 or -49).

DX became the Spruance class.
DXG was not built, the CG47 Ticonderoga class being built instead a few years later on the same hull and machinery. That was much better.
The DX upgrade path never happened to the Sprucan's but what became the Kidd class destroyers, originally built for Iran were constructed on that plan.

The Sprucan's were in fact highly successful and in the 1980's probably the best ASW surface warships in the world. They were also extremely flexible.
They became the Navy's primary TLAM cruise missile platform and a number of them were fitted with special ELINT gear that was crucial to providing target information to that system.

While admittedly not as sexy as a guided missile cruiser, no sense criticizing them because they could not do things they were not intended to do. Most of the complaints about the Sprucan's came in the 1970's when the first appeared massively over budget (due to rampant inflation at the time) and seemingly under-armed because some systems (Harpoon, Sea Sparrow, Vulcan-Phalanx) it was designed for were not ready yet. Like all modern warships much of its combat power was "under the skin" and not readily apparent to those who view combat power as counting gun barrels and missile launchers.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
I have similar ideas about how the RN should be designing Frigates. What they need is a modern 'Leander' or even a modern 'Type 12' (for those old enough to rememeber) for the majority of the work they do.
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Dedicated ASW ships for North Atlantic operations?
 
She has 'fallen through a gap' as it were arriving late to the party.

On the 6th RODNEY Sword Beach.
On arrival off the beachhead she was ordered to return to Spithead.

On the 7th she sailed for the Normandy again and joined US battleships ARKANSAS, TEXAS and NEVADA and the heavy cruiser TUSCALOOSA.
There were no targets for RODNEY in the American sector so the group sailed east to the British beaches.

From the official record

At 1830 hours off Juno Beach RODNEY opened fire on the 12th SS Panzer Division "Hitlerjugend" who were driving the 9th Brigade, 3rd Canadian Division back from Authie, north west of Caen. RODNEY fired 132 rounds of 16in and 99 rounds of 6in.
(After this bombardment a German officer stated that the concentrated fire was such as had never been seen before on any European battlefield and officers and men were totally demoralised)

8th – At 0900 hours carried out a 6in shoot in support of the 3rd Canadian Division, against a fortified farm held by the 12th SS Panzer Division.
Late in the evening the Luftwaffe attacked shipping off the beachhead. In the attack RODNEY was near missed by 4 bombs.

9th – Between 0315 and 0335 hours RODNEY fired 78 rounds of 16in in support of the 185th Brigade of the British 3rd Division against the 21st SS Panzer Division.
Later RODNEY fired 75 rounds of 16in against tanks of the 21st SS Panzer Division near Caen. It should only have been 15 rounds, but the telegraphist who took the radio message wrote his 'ones' in the continental manner, ie like a seven, so an additional 60 rounds were fired.
At 0900 hours RODNEY carried out a 6in blind shoot against a German troop assembly area.
At 1100 hours RODNEY carried out a 6in shoot against German troops and vehicles near Caen. Followed by 7 rounds of 16in AP against the Benneville battery.
Later in the day RODNEY carried out a 6in shoot against the Houlgate battery (4 ex French 155mm guns).
At 1600 hours RODNEY came under air attack from 12 Me 109 and Fw 190 fighter bombers all the bombs missed.
At 1700 hours RODNEY, the cruiser DRAGON escorted by RIOU and BLEASDALE sailed from the beachhead for Milford Haven, where RODNEY was to re-ammunition.
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I'm sure I've seen photos tagged of her bombarding targets at Sword on the 6th, but the above reads like she turned up and was told to go home before doing anything?
 
Yes, then came back next day and was sent to Juno.
After resupply she was back on the 18th and continued to give fire support at various locations in to July, her last action on the 9th

At 0845 hours RODNEY fired 15 rounds of 16in at German tanks of the 12th SS Panzer Division in support of Operation CHARNWOOD. One of RODNEY’s 16in shells destroyed the spire of the Church of Saint-Pierre in Caen.
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Captain_Swoop said:
A full list of the fire support ships off Normandy.

Omaha Bombardment Group
Battleships
USS Arkansas (BB 33). Wyoming class, commissioned 1912.
USS Texas (BB 35). New York class, commissioned 1914.

Cruisers
HMS Bellona. Bellona-class light cruiser, commissioned 1943.
HMS Glasgow. Southampton class, commissioned 1937.
FFL Georges Leygues (French). La Glossonairre–class light cruiser, commissioned 1937.
FFL Montcalm (French). La Glossonaire–class light cruiser, commissioned 1937.

Destroyers
USS Baldwin (DD 624). Livermore class, commissioned 1943. • USS Carmick (DD 493). Livermore class, commissioned 1942.
USS Doyle (DD 494). Livermore class, commissioned 1942.
USS Emmons (DD 457/DMS 22). Ellyson class, commissioned 1941/44, sunk off Okinawa 1945.
USS Frankford (DD 497). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Harding (DD 625/DMS 28). Ellyson class, commissioned 1943/44.
USS McCook (DD 496). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Satterlee (DD 626). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Thompson (DD 627). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
Destroyer Escorts
HMS Melbreak. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Talybont. Hunt class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Tanatside. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.

Utah Bombardment Group

Battleship
USS Nevada (BB 36). Nevada class, commissioned 1916.

Cruisers
HMS Black Prince. Bellona-class light cruiser, commissioned 1943.
HMS Enterprise. E-class light cruiser, commissioned 1926.
HMS Hawkins. Hawkins class, commissioned 1919.
USS Quincy (CA 71). Baltimore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Tuscaloosa (CA 37). Astoria class, commissioned 1934.
Monitor
HMS Erebus. Erebus class, commissioned 1916.

Destroyers
USS Butler (DD 636/DMS 29). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942.
USS Corry (DD 463). Gleaves class, commissioned 1942, sunk 6 June.
USS Fitch (DD 462/DMS 25). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Forrest (DD 461/DMS 24). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Gerhardi (DD 637/DMS 30). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Herndon (DD 638). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.
USS Hobson (DD 464/DMS 26). Ellyson class, commissioned 1942/44.
USS Shubrick (DD 639). Livermore class, commissioned 1943.


Destroyer Escorts
USS Bates (DE 68/APD 47). Buckley class, commissioned 1943.
USS Rich (DE 695). Buckley class, commissioned 1943, sunk 8 June.

Sloop
HNMS Soemba (Dutch). Flores class, commissioned 1926.

Gold Bombardment Group

Light Cruisers
HMS Argonaut. Dido class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Ajax. Leander class, commissioned 1935.
HMS Emerald. Emerald class, commissioned 1926.
HMS Orion. Leander class, commissioned 1934.

Destroyers
HMS Cattistock. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Cottesmore. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Grenville. G class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Jervis. J class, commissioned 1939.
ORP Krakowiak (Polish). Hunt class, commissioned 1941.
HMS Pytchley. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Ulster. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Ulysses. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Undaunted. U class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Undine. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Urania. U class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Urchin. U class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Ursa. U class, commissioned 1944.

Sloop
HNMS Flores (Dutch). Flores class, commissioned 1926.

Bombardment and gunfire support ships in the British and Canadian sectors were:

Juno Bombardment Group

Cruisers
HMS Belfast. Edinburgh class, commissioned 1938.
HMS Diadem. Bellona class light cruiser, commissioned 1944.

Destroyers
HMCS Algonquin. V class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Bleasdale. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
FFL La Combattante (French). Hunt class, commissioned 1942, lost in 1945.
HMS Faulknor. F class, commissioned 1935.
HMS Fury. F class, commissioned 1934. Sunk 21 June 1944.
HNoMS Glaisdale (Norwegian). Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Kempenfelt. W class, commissioned 1943.
HMCS Sioux. V class, commissioned 1944.
HMS Stevenstone. Hunt class, commissioned 1943.

Sword Bombardment Group

Battleships
HMS Ramilles. Royal Sovereign class, commissioned 1917.
HMS Warspite. Queen Elizabeth class, commissioned 1916.
U.S. Navy battleship Nevada bombarding the invasion beaches: Martin K.A. Morgan.


Cruisers
HMS Arethusa. Arethusa class light cruiser, commissioned 1935.
HMS Danae. D-class light cruiser, commissioned 1918.
OPD Dragon (Polish). Dragon-class light cruiser, commissioned 1917, torpedoed 8 June.
HMS Frobisher. Hawkins class, commissioned 1924.
HMS Mauritius. Fiji-class light cruiser, commissioned 1941.

Destroyers
HMS Eglington. Hunt class, commissioned 1940.
HMS Kelvin. K class, commissioned 1939.
HMS Middleton. Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HMS Saumarez. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Scorpion. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Scourge. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Serapis. S class, commissioned 1943.
ORP Slazak (Polish). Hunt class, commissioned 1942.
HNoMS Stord (Norwegian). S class, commissioned 1943.
HNoMS Svenner (Norwegian). S class, commissioned 1944, lost 6 June.
HMS Swift. S class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Verulam. V class, commissioned 1943.
HMS Virago. V class, commissioned 1943.

Monitor
HMS Roberts. Roberts class, commissioned 1941.

https://www.historyonthenet.com/naval-artillery
Click to expand...
My father, who was on Omaha Beach on the morning of June 6, said of a destroyer driver who came right into the beach to provide fire support, that it was a wonder that the ship could float with those big brass balls dragging along the seabed.
 
Metullus said:
My father, who was on Omaha Beach on the morning of June 6, said of a destroyer driver who came right into the beach to provide fire support, that it was a wonder that the ship could float with those big brass balls dragging along the seabed.
Click to expand...


USS McCook?
 
BTW Roland Emmerich, the guy who gave us such masteprieces of Historical Accuracy as 'The Patriot" ( with it's semi automatic muzzle loading rifles )"Anonymous" (which proves that Shakepeare did not write Shakespeare) and "Stonewall" (denounced by several people who were there in 1969 as a pile of crap) had a film on the battle of Midway coming out this fall. Prepare to vomit.
 
dudalb said:
BTW Roland Emmerich, the guy who gave us such masteprieces of Historical Accuracy as 'The Patriot" ( with it's semi automatic muzzle loading rifles )"Anonymous" (which proves that Shakepeare did not write Shakespeare) and "Stonewall" (denounced by several people who were there in 1969 as a pile of crap) had a film on the battle of Midway coming out this fall. Prepare to vomit.
Click to expand...

It won't have Charlton Heston in it, so that alone makes it better than the previous effort.

Since USS Arkansas has been mentioned, I'll bring up both the Wyoming and New York classes, which were not great when they were new and astoundingly obsolete during WWII. Arkansas was the absolute worst battleship retained by any of the great powers under the treaties. At least her sister Wyoming did good service as a training ship during the war.
 
Trebuchet said:
It won't have Charlton Heston in it, so that alone makes it better than the previous effort.
.
Click to expand...

It also won't have SENSURROUND! Nor will it have footage taken from Tora Tora Tora and old newsreel stock footage.

In fairness, Emerich is going to have to work harder to screw this one up. Will he go with the traditional (and long debunked) accounting of the attacks or the more recent reevaluations?

I'll wager he puts in a Pearl Harbor conspiracy in there somehow.
 
dudalb said:
BTW Roland Emmerich, the guy who gave us such masteprieces of Historical Accuracy as 'The Patriot" ( with it's semi automatic muzzle loading rifles )"Anonymous" (which proves that Shakepeare did not write Shakespeare) and "Stonewall" (denounced by several people who were there in 1969 as a pile of crap) had a film on the battle of Midway coming out this fall. Prepare to vomit.
Click to expand...

Oh look a teaser trailer:

https://youtu.be/dd8OsSdXEGc

Looks like Emmerich junk. The attack on Midway island looks like it has more planes than the entire Japanese flet possessed.
 
Metullus said:
My father, who was on Omaha Beach on the morning of June 6, said of a destroyer driver who came right into the beach to provide fire support, that it was a wonder that the ship could float with those big brass balls dragging along the seabed.
Click to expand...

Yes, that was an effective littoral combat vessel.
 
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