Trans Women are not Women

[ponderingturtle]

The idea of a compromise isn't really letting one side win and the other side lose. That's . . . .letting one side win and the other side lose.

The floated idea is seeking to "compromise" an issue which is not the conflict of objectives.

Yea we totally got the whole civil rights movements wrong with that, we needed far more compromise. Like have Loving v Virginia prevent them from being charged with miscegenation but refuse to recognize their marriage. That would have been far better than winning and losing because we would have had a great compromise for everyone.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Apparently you refer to women who oppose natal males having unfettered access to female-only space as extremists.

But you also apparently endorse a proposal that fully accedes to their demand.

I assure you that you are going to satisfy this ("extremist") group with this third way.

Yep only women born women, you have to throw out any XY women assigned female at birth and such basic feminism right there nothing extremist about it. Next people will think a gay man is a real man. Real men have sex with women not with men, simple and direct and no need for adding terms of disorder like heterosexual(which started as disorder after all not something to refer to normal men and women as).

This is fun!

 

[ponderingturtle]

Rejected by whom? People who look like women can already use the women's loo with no problem.

And of course trans men are suppsed to be in there too. So really cis women shouldn't question a man in the womens room as with out inspecting his genitals and detailed medical history how do they know he doesn't belong in there being assigned female at birth?

But they always ignore the trans men in this thing.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think that in order to use those rooms an individual should have made actual real steps to transition. Someone who hasn't taken hormones, who doesn't dress appropriate to the sex they declare, who isn't living like that sex doesn't strike me as being genuine in their transness. Declarations alone don't demonstrate reality. Changing sex requires an enormous amount of work. If someone's not going to do any of the work why should they be allowed to enjoy the fruits of the labor?

After all only real women are allowed to wear pants that is right out for transwomen. Because only real women have the right to be women and yet not be hyper feminine.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's a compromise because the spectrum of points of view is broader than the range between your own, TM's, and the trans-rights extremists'.

Nice to see how we should not view Jim Crow as a crime against people but an effective compromise between slavery and civil rights, and it should be viewed historically as such.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Then it should be super easy to come up with a specific example of a transwoman rejecting the third bathroom option.

Yea it isn't like people take issue with requiring being outed as minorities that face persecution. They should be happy with what ever colored symbol they need to wear on their arm band.

Next people will allow gays to pass with out everyone constantly knowing they are gay and being open to take what ever issue they want with it. Gays should be required to tell their employers so they can decide if they want to keep them or fire them. No not being out at work gays!

 

[theprestige]

HAHAHA, well, it is the internet. You never know when someone is going to casually toss a crazy remark into the conversation. : )

Sometimes it's depressingly predictable.

Hey they need to out themselves and open themselves up to proper legal consequences like losing their job to go to the bathroom, that is what they deserve!

Yea we totally got the whole civil rights movements wrong with that, we needed far more compromise. Like have Loving v Virginia prevent them from being charged with miscegenation but refuse to recognize their marriage. That would have been far better than winning and losing because we would have had a great compromise for everyone.

Yep only women born women, you have to throw out any XY women assigned female at birth and such basic feminism right there nothing extremist about it. Next people will think a gay man is a real man. Real men have sex with women not with men, simple and direct and no need for adding terms of disorder like heterosexual(which started as disorder after all not something to refer to normal men and women as).

This is fun!

And of course trans men are suppsed to be in there too. So really cis women shouldn't question a man in the womens room as with out inspecting his genitals and detailed medical history how do they know he doesn't belong in there being assigned female at birth?

But they always ignore the trans men in this thing.

After all only real women are allowed to wear pants that is right out for transwomen. Because only real women have the right to be women and yet not be hyper feminine.

Nice to see how we should not view Jim Crow as a crime against people but an effective compromise between slavery and civil rights, and it should be viewed historically as such.

Q.E.D.

 

[Francesca R]

This is fun!

That's so great. Happy for ya.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It is super easy. A substantial part of the trans lobby calls for access to female (and presumably male) bathrooms based on trans-identity and rejects gender-neutral or third options as not a solution for them.

And you want to have them all clearly marked and forced to constantly out themselves.

It would be morally wrong for them to not be out like it is for the gays coming back from pride on the subway putting away all their identifying markers for fear in of violence in their own neighborhoods. They need to accept that outing and the violence that comes with it.

 

[theprestige]

And you want to have them all clearly marked and forced to constantly out themselves.

What's your solution, ponderingturtle?

 

[d4m10n]

And of course trans men are suppsed to be in there too.

Well, now, that's just silly. Who on Earth is upset about trans men in the men's loo?

Yea it isn't like people take issue with requiring being outed as minorities that face persecution.

People who pass as men or women aren't being outed (they may easily use the bathroom they prefer) whereas people who don't pass cannot be easily closeted.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Nope one of the groups states they don't have a toilet that is the trans people this gives them a toilet.

And of course outs them too. But you always outed yourself in every situation constantly too I am sure so doing that would be no big deal.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Oh let go off those comparisons to black people or homosexuals wanting the same freedoms as others already. Trans people already have the same freedoms as everyone else, or are you claiming that everyone else is allowed to use the bathroom for the other sex except trans people?

And with marriage blacks and gays always had the same rights as everyone else too. Yet they insisted on framing that equality as some kind of discrimination. Everyone was free to marry only people of the opposite gender and same race. Simple and equal but no they had to rock the damn boat and say that was discrimination, the nerve of them. Everyone was equal and that wasn't good enough for them.

 

[theprestige]

And with marriage blacks and gays always had the same rights as everyone else too. Yet they insisted on framing that equality as some kind of discrimination. Everyone was free to marry only people of the opposite gender and same race. Simple and equal but no they had to rock the damn boat and say that was discrimination, the nerve of them. Everyone was equal and that wasn't good enough for them.

What's your solution, ponderingturtle?

 

[ponderingturtle]

This doesn't strike me as the only difficulty, given that some women have expressed discomfort with having bepenised individuals in their hitherto sex-segregated spaces.

p.s. Thx for that link.

And they still want to force trans men into the bathroom with them. And of course the trans women are banned as it isn't like they are doing genital inspections. Will they make the trans woman drop trousers to prove she had bottom surgery? This is sexual assault is supposed to make them feel more comfortable?

 

[Butter!]

And you want to have them all clearly marked and forced to constantly out themselves.

It would be morally wrong for them to not be out like it is for the gays coming back from pride on the subway putting away all their identifying markers for fear in of violence in their own neighborhoods. They need to accept that outing and the violence that comes with it.

PT, what will you do if someone ever shows up who DOES hold positions as crazy and extreme as the strawman fantasies you make up?


PT: I suppose you want all the trans people to wear scarlet letters and use the bathroom in trenches outside, like animals, eh?

New Poster: Yes, that is precisely what I want.

PT: ...oh

 

[ponderingturtle]

Well, now, that's just silly. Who on Earth is upset about trans men in the men's loo?

No all people are supposed to use the gender assigned at birth and the issue is genitals so clearly if they see men in the womens room they should just assume they are trans men and doing what these laws demand of them. That makes them comfortable right?

 

[cullennz]

And you want to have them all clearly marked and forced to constantly out themselves.

It would be morally wrong for them to not be out like it is for the gays coming back from pride on the subway putting away all their identifying markers for fear in of violence in their own neighborhoods. They need to accept that outing and the violence that comes with it.

What...Is.....Your.....Idea......As.....A.....Solution?

 

[d4m10n]

No all people are supposed to use the gender assigned at birth and the issue is genitals...

Gender isn't assigned at birth, it is socially inculcated over time. Sex is assigned (some would say documented) at birth.

As to who is supposed to use what, I don't really have a dog in the fight. You could at least specify whom you're arguing against. I'm guessing gender-critical feminists?

 

[theprestige]

And they still want to force trans men into the bathroom with them. And of course the trans women are banned as it isn't like they are doing genital inspections. Will they make the trans woman drop trousers to prove she had bottom surgery? This is sexual assault is supposed to make them feel more comfortable?

What's your solution, ponderingturtle?