Trans Women are not Women

[TomB]

Who is the group of extremists that doesn't want trans-women to use a third bathroom but only wants them to use the men's?

Moms:

Dear Business Man Who Poops in the Family Restroom at the Airport:

This bathroom is not a quiet reprieve for you to sit on the toilet and break out your iPad for a little catching up on the latest headlines. THAT IS WHY THERE IS A MEN’S RESTROOM RIGHT NEXT TO THE FAMILY RESTROOM for you, traveling ALONE. I have three children, some of which are threatening to pee their pants if we don’t use the bathroom (right this second!) before we board.

https://twincities.citymomsblog.com/open-letter-to-the-man-using-the-family-restroom-at-the-airport/

Some overzealous employees:

Long story short: I have an embarrassing health condition that requires I wear an adult diaper. Sometimes my husband helps me when I need to use the bathroom, so we usually go into a family restroom at the local mall or movie theater in order to have privacy and to avoid embarrassment (I once had two teenage girls laugh when they saw my diaper...)...

On Friday night, I went to the movie theater of which I've used their family restroom many times without problems. Just as I was about to enter, a theater worker stopped me, and began to ask me why I was using the restroom by myself. I didn't want to be too specific about it but I told her I had a medical condition that I wanted to take care of which others around. She told me I couldn't go into the family restroom unless I had children with me. I told her I'd done this before, and she said she didn't care then threatened to call the police and have me arrested. At this, I decided to just get a refund and leave.

https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/83pcfp/can_you_get_arrested_for_using_family_restroom/

Seattle Public Library:

In a very thorough Facebook post, a transgender man says two Central Library employees and one library security staffer denied him access to a "family" restroom on Monday, June 5.

According to Ryan Alley, one employee said he couldn't use that restroom because he didn't have a "family" with him, despite the fact that he says he's used the bathroom solo several times before. Alley then asked to speak to a supervisor, who allegedly affirmed the first employee's decision and added that the family bathroom wasn't available to transgender patrons. After asking to speak with someone else, Alley says, a security guard was called.

He includes video of his interaction with the security guard in the Facebook post. When the guard asks Alley to stop recording, Alley says he doesn't feel safe enough to stop recording. "Then you're not safe enough to use the bathroom," the guard replies.

Alley, who describes himself as a regular visitor to the library who is also a disabled, transgender man on a fixed income, says one of the employees directed him to "another bathroom at another facility a significant distance from the library," which he called "an unreasonable request to someone who already has a difficult time navigating the city due to [his] disabilities."

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2017/06/09/25204540/transgender-patron-denied-access-to-family-bathroom-at-seattle-public-library

Most of the existing third option bathrooms are labelled for families and/or handicapped people. Many people believe it's inappropriate to use them if you are not disabled or taking a child in with you.

A lot of the complaints I read are from mothers. I don't think they would support relabeling them as gender neutral either as it increases the likelihood that they will have to wait for another occupant (or that the bathroom will smell, apparently).

 

[Darat]

Hell if anything I wish overall society going "The solution is... SHUT THE %$#@! UP WE'RE SICK OF HEARING IT FROM ALL OF YOU!" was a solution we went to more often.

Again nobody is "wrong" here. "Here's a potential solution" and "There is no problem, that's the solution" are both... valid points to argue. They just don't work for each other's definition of what the problem we're trying to solve is.

Joe that is what always happens, whether in say your country with black people wanting the same freedoms as white people or in another country homosexuals wanting the same freedoms as heterosexuals. The mainstream always wants the minority to shut up, and often will even use force to get the minority to shut up.

Looks like we are at another one of those change points for society, the minority is getting attention and it is challenging the current status quo.

 

[caveman1917]

Joe that is what always happens, whether in say your country with black people wanting the same freedoms as white people or in another country homosexuals wanting the same freedoms as heterosexuals. The mainstream always wants the minority to shut up, and often will even use force to get the minority to shut up.

Looks like we are at another one of those change points for society, the minority is getting attention and it is challenging the current status quo.

Oh let go off those comparisons to black people or homosexuals wanting the same freedoms as others already. Trans people already have the same freedoms as everyone else, or are you claiming that everyone else is allowed to use the bathroom for the other sex except trans people?

 

[deadrose]

Eugh, even my old high school is doing a better job of this. The students chose to convert one of the male restrooms to a gender-free restroom, and it's used by most of the students. The school administration just went along with the student decision.

It isn't a special single restroom, it doesn't require asking for a key first, and nobody seems to care what gender is in the next stall over. The vast majority of students find this to be a good solution.

Maybe we should see what the younger generation in general want to do, instead of foisting our 20th century ways of thinking on everyone. Maybe instead of a small non-gendered restroom, we should have large ungendered ones, and small gendered ones for people who are uncomfortable with that. It would probably speed up bathroom lines by quite a lot, and it's perfectly possible to still have a urinal area screened off from the stalls.

 

[d4m10n]

Well I don't what you expect out of any of us when we have no data to work with, yet we're still somehow transphobes for not agreeing with the opinions that apparently nobody actually has.

I expect people who make claims to back them up. When caveman1917 says "this was rejected because it didn't validate their identity as women" it effectively calls the question of who rejected the third bathroom option and what precisely they said about why they rejected it.

As to whether it is transphobic to say transwomen don’t belong in women’s spaces, well, I leave that judgement to you. I've never found labelling people as phobic to help the conversation along.

Lila Perry.

Thank you! This news story is a fine example of what I was asking about. Not perfectly on point re: bathrooms in places of public accommodation, but the rationale appears to be about the same.

Most of the existing third option bathrooms are labelled for families and/or handicapped people. Many people believe it's inappropriate to use them if you are not disabled or taking a child in with you.

The inability to walk into either the men's or the women's restroom, feel like you belong there, and be seen by others as belonging there, strikes me as socially disabling at best. Personally, I'd avoid eating out anywhere where I couldn't relieve myself comfortably.

 

[Francesca R]

[ . . . ]

All three of these cases are opposition to someone without a family using a family bathroom. The first two are not opposition directed at a trans-person. The last one is but is coming from a jumped-up employee who is again seeing fit to enforce against someone unaccompanied by a family rather than someone trans. None of them fit the category of people opposed to transfolk being able to access what is merely a gender neutral bathroom.

I will stick with my current view that there is no significant opposition to this.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I expect people who make claims to back them up. When caveman1917 says "this was rejected because it didn't validate their identity as women" it effectively calls the question of who rejected the third bathroom option and what precisely they said about why they rejected it.

And as I said that's demanding that someone show you where a vegan specifically said in those exact words they won't eat a ribeye steak.

"Where are all these mythical transgender people who are all hung up on whatever other people think of their gender" is... just absurd.

You're demanding I give you example of the definition of the thing.

 

[Steve]

Eugh, even my old high school is doing a better job of this. The students chose to convert one of the male restrooms to a gender-free restroom, and it's used by most of the students. The school administration just went along with the student decision.

It isn't a special single restroom, it doesn't require asking for a key first, and nobody seems to care what gender is in the next stall over. The vast majority of students find this to be a good solution.

Maybe we should see what the younger generation in general want to do, instead of foisting our 20th century ways of thinking on everyone. Maybe instead of a small non-gendered restroom, we should have large ungendered ones, and small gendered ones for people who are uncomfortable with that. It would probably speed up bathroom lines by quite a lot, and it's perfectly possible to still have a urinal area screened off from the stalls.

Like most social changes this one will start small and get bigger over time. Maybe by the time those students become architects and engineers it will be standard practice to include non-gendered restrooms in all new building designs.

 

[Francesca R]

When caveman1917 says "this was rejected because it didn't validate their identity as women" it effectively calls the question of who rejected the third bathroom option and what precisely they said about why they rejected it.

Trans groups have long opposed segregation of themselves into a third bathroom option. Their argument is not unreasonable either. The difficulty is that it is open to abuse by predatory men whether they identify as trans or not.

Forcing transgender people to use private or separate bathrooms is not the solution. [ . . . ] forcing transgender people to use private bathrooms when other people do not have to is isolating and reinforces the idea that transgender people are somehow harmful and should be kept separate from everybody else.

[ . . . ]

Transgender-inclusive policies do allow for men’s and women’s rooms, and do not require gender-neutral bathrooms. Instead, transgender-inclusive policies allow all people—including transgender people—to use the bathroom that best matches their gender identity. Those who are living as women use the women’s room, and those that are living as men use the men’s restroom.

 

[Ziggurat]

Joe that is what always happens, whether in say your country with black people wanting the same freedoms as white people or in another country homosexuals wanting the same freedoms as heterosexuals. The mainstream always wants the minority to shut up, and often will even use force to get the minority to shut up.

Looks like we are at another one of those change points for society, the minority is getting attention and it is challenging the current status quo.

There's another minority group that's advocating for social change lately, because they too feel like we're at one of those change points. That group is pedophiles. They've even come up with a new name for themselves: Minor Attracted Persons, or MAPs. They want the same freedom as the rest of us to have sex with whomever they want. And the mainstream wants them to shut up, and often puts them in prison.

Why didn't you compare transgender activists to pedophiles? The parallels are just as strong as with minorities, arguably more so on a number of fronts. Is it because you yourself would reach a different conclusion regarding the rights of pedophiles compared to transgenders? Or is it because you wouldn't reach a different conclusion, but think others here would? Do you think all minority preferences should be treated the same? Or do you think that some preferences should be treated differently than others? And if it's the latter, what makes the difference, and why are the racial minority preferences you referenced the same as the transgender preferences under debate here? Couldn't someone else view them as being different?

 

[Butter!]

There's another minority group that's advocating for social change lately, because they too feel like we're at one of those change points. That group is pedophiles. They've even come up with a new name for themselves: Minor Attracted Persons, or MAPs. They want the same freedom as the rest of us to have sex with whomever they want. And the mainstream wants them to shut up, and often puts them in prison.

Why didn't you compare transgender activists to pedophiles? The parallels are just as strong as with minorities, arguably more so on a number of fronts. Is it because you yourself would reach a different conclusion regarding the rights of pedophiles compared to transgenders? Or is it because you wouldn't reach a different conclusion, but think others here would? Do you think all minority preferences should be treated the same? Or do you think that some preferences should be treated differently than others? And if it's the latter, what makes the difference, and why are the racial minority preferences you referenced the same as the transgender preferences under debate here? Couldn't someone else view them as being different?

Most of the MAPs people are trolls. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/maps-pride-flag/

Not that I'm trying to argue with you. I dropped out of this argument awhile ago, because I don't think I honestly understand enough about it to make any comments, and I definitely don't want to hurt or offend anybody.

I just try to bring up the doubt about the MAPs thing whenever I see it mentioned. Pedophiles are real and scary, but I'm not convinced they're organizing to this degree. It seems to be a troll campaign to discredit the other thousand letters in the current acronym.

 

[d4m10n]

The difficulty is that it is open to abuse by predatory men whether they identify as trans or not.

This doesn't strike me as the only difficulty, given that some women have expressed discomfort with having bepenised individuals in their hitherto sex-segregated spaces.

p.s. Thx for that link.

 

[caveman1917]

This doesn't strike me as the only difficulty, given that some women have expressed discomfort with having bepenised individuals in their hitherto sex-segregated spaces.

p.s. Thx for that link.

Isn't the risk of predatory men the reason for that discomfort though? So it's not two separate difficulties but rather one being the cause of the other.

 

[TomB]

All three of these cases are opposition to someone without a family using a family bathroom. The first two are not opposition directed at a trans-person. The last one is but is coming from a jumped-up employee who is again seeing fit to enforce against someone unaccompanied by a family rather than someone trans. None of them fit the category of people opposed to transfolk being able to access what is merely a gender neutral bathroom.

I will stick with my current view that there is no significant opposition to this.

If we were to go with the third bathroom option, the most likely (logical and cost-effective) way to implement it would be to relabel the family bathrooms as gender neutral. The woman at the airport would oppose this. The employee who blocked a person with a medical issue from using a more private bathroom would also oppose this. The other items I read (didn't link) complaining that there were men coming out of the family bathrooms in some store would oppose this.

I wasn't looking for trans-specific cases, by the way.

 

[Francesca R]

"I oppose you taking away the bathroom meant for a purpose and transforming the purpose in to a different one" still isn't opposition to transfolk using gender neutral bathrooms.

Think you are over reaching to find a viewpoint that isn't actually in evidence

 

[Meadmaker]

Eugh, even my old high school is doing a better job of this. The students chose to convert one of the male restrooms to a gender-free restroom, and it's used by most of the students. The school administration just went along with the student decision.

fascinating.

And, to me, surprising, to the point of provoking some skepticism.

Public or private school? If public, I would expect to have seen news stories about parental protests. You don't happen to have any media links about this, or about any similar solutions used at other schools?


And if it is accurate, and if indeed students prefer it, then that's kind of cool.

 

[d4m10n]

Isn't the risk of predatory men the reason for that discomfort though? So it's not two separate difficulties but rather one being the cause of the other.

I really don't think that's all there is to it. Even if locker room integration proved 100% successful in terms of minimizing predation (e.g. sexual assaults, voyeurism, etc.) we'd still hear some women objecting to seeing intact external genitals waggling about in their showers and changing rooms.

The link shared above invites us to have a "productive and respectful conversations about how to make restrooms and locker rooms more comfortable for everyone" but I'm not seeing a potential fix for this particular problem, unless we (re)design our facilities around the idea of fully private showers and changing cubicles.

 

[Francesca R]

Pedophiles are real and scary, but I'm not convinced they're organizing to this degree. It seems to be a troll campaign to discredit the other thousand letters in the current acronym.

Oh whoops for a second I thought I was reading "seems to be a troll campaign to discredit the genuine pedophiles" . . . .

#BetterIncreaseFontSizeSetting

 

[Butter!]

Oh whoops for a second I thought I was reading "seems to be a troll campaign to discredit the genuine pedophiles" . . . .

#BetterIncreaseFontSizeSetting

HAHAHA, well, it is the internet. You never know when someone is going to casually toss a crazy remark into the conversation.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Again, in at least some places where option 3 has been made available, it has been explicitly rejected by trans activists.

Hey they need to out themselves and open themselves up to proper legal consequences like losing their job to go to the bathroom, that is what they deserve!