Trans Women are not Women

[Francesca R]

It's less of a compromise from the "real women only" perspective as they're getting their previous sacred space, and in return all they have to concede is that they won't stop people from using the uncategorized bathroom. Not asking as much, true, but frankly I doubt they'd be willing to concede even that much. They seem to hate transwomen so much I expect they won't accept even a victory if it doesn't require a crushing defeat to their enemy.

I wonder why any woman would object to an uncategorised bathroom, and say "No way; those trannies have to use the gents"

Can you locate a spokeswoman saying anything like this?

 

[Belz...]

TM is, rightly, come at this from the place of "Good enough is not the enemy of perfect."

I'm not saying that it's not a solution that could work. However it would be very expensive for a lot of people to implement, and it might bring us right back here a short while later. So before implementing it it might be a good idea to check if it would actually be a compromise that anybody would agree with in a substantial proportion. As it stands it's just a suggestion with little to support it.

 

[caveman1917]

TM is making sense.

From where we are at the moment is that we have two groups of extremists, you are never going to satisfy both of those groups with any solution. Therefore a third way has to be found and the idea of not forcing anyone to use a toilet that is the "wrong" one for them would seem to be the only way of compromising.

Who is the group of extremists that doesn't want trans-women to use a third bathroom but only wants them to use the men's?

 

[theprestige]

Okay, then. What do you think the problem is? Do you have any ideas for a solution?

Here's one problem, or question, anyway:

Does it make sense to allow any man to use a women's restroom, locker room or similar segregated space for women, simply by declaring that he wants to do so?

That's one of the proposals on the table, and I wouldn't mind your take on it.

---

I think your third bathroom solves a separate but related problem: What to do for men who choose to present as women, and who are at risk of harassment or assault if they go into a men's bathroom.

Your solution is a bit of a compromise, which has been thoroughly discussed, so I won't re-hash it again.

---

Another solution, that has some support in trans-advocacy circles, is that transwomen should be allowed to decide for themselves. Pre-op, post-op, presenting, not presenting, notional-only, any man at any time is entitled to declare trans status and use a women's restroom.

This solution very nicely avoids the problem of how to verify that a transwoman is "legitimate" without having to resort to "papers please" or some other form of social or official inspection. That's a really big problem. It's definitely an advantage of this solution that it solves that problem.

It does, however, raise other problems, or potential problems, that have not yet really been addressed. Maybe your compromise is the closest we can get.

---

So.

Does it make sense to allow any man to use a women's restroom, locker room or similar segregated space for women, simply by declaring that he wants to do so?

What do you think?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Who is the group of extremists that doesn't want trans-women to use a third bathroom but only wants them to use the men's?

Again if "third category" was a valid solution WHAT EVEN IS THE DEBATE?

The more we discuss this issue the less sure I am what anybody wants.

The defining, the literal reason it's a thing, the whole point it even exists... everything behind the transgender movement is not the creation of some new third category, but the inclusion people in one of the two existing categories, just not the ones they are traditionally assigned to. You take that away and there's nothing to talk about.

If transgender people are happy with a third category... I'm really confused as to what they want because that really, really seems antithetical to the whole... point.

I'm trying real, real hard here to land anywhere but "I just want to be a special exception no matter what the standard in place is" but every time I land anywhere that isn't that I get waved away.

 

[Francesca R]

Who is the group of extremists that doesn't want trans-women to use a third bathroom but only wants them to use the men's?

I have not seen them. Didn't know they existed, wonder if we are going to be shown.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I wonder why any woman would object to an uncategorised bathroom, and say "No way; those trannies have to use the gents"

Can you locate a spokeswoman saying anything like this?

I hope they wouldn't, but as I doubt the unreasonable are confined to just one side of a conflict I wouldn't bet on it. No, I don't have a spokesman quote. I was theorizing based on my cynical view of human nature and my personal assessment of the psychology of some of the writers on this topic.

Further, if a third uncategorized bathroom were common I think it would be heavily used by women just as overflow when the women's room were crowded. I expect in that scenario some women would demand the uncategorized bathroom convert to "real women" only to accommodate their convenience. It would be colonized. And as their numbers are superior and they're less willing to compromise I expect they'd succeed and kill the project. Bathroom habits are too ingrained a taboo in this culture, I doubt my suggested third bathroom would work anywhere but the most liberal of enclaves.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Further, if a third uncategorized bathroom were common I think it would be heavily used by women just as overflow when the women's room were crowded.

From my own experience that's literally all "Family Bathrooms" are now.

 

[Francesca R]

I hope they wouldn't, but as I doubt the unreasonable are confined to just one side of a conflict I wouldn't bet on it. No, I don't have a spokesman quote. I was theorizing based on my cynical view of human nature and my personal assessment of the psychology of some of the writers on this topic.

Well I have never heard of that particular opinion being voiced anywhere. (Not that I am all over this space.) I am gonna assume that view has no significant representation unless I learn to the contrary.

Conversely one does not have to look far at all to see male-born trans activists demanding in to female quarters. so we know that stance is around, and fairly noisy.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"The vegans are demanding I offer them vegan options in my restaurant."
"Just give them steak."
"Vegans don't eat steak."
"Where are these vegan extremists that won't eat meat? I DEMAND SOMEBODY SHOW THEM TO ME!"

 

[caveman1917]

Rejected by whom? People who look like women can already use the women's loo with no problem.

I think it was in a school or university with an activist student group about this, it was suggested to use the disabled's bathroom but they rejected it on the grounds that it still didn't validate their identity as women. Sorry I can't remember the details, it was in some article I've read a long time ago. Maybe Rolfe can enlighten on the details since she seems to be more aware of these things than I am?

 

[Steve]

Hey, join in the lying fun! The more the merrier.

You are overly fond of that word.

Clearly, what I meant was that no one in this thread had discussed bathrooms. Not even myself. Nope. That's gotta be it.

A little clarity always helps.

Seriously, do you think you're being clever? Or did you really not notice that I was responding to TM's comment about compromise?

Clever? Me? That will never happen. Compromise over bathroom access has been raised numerous times over the course of this thread. There have been many heated comments made on this exact topic. The last page or two of discussion has been very much about compromise. Your statement:

"More lies. You know for a fact that this isn't what's being discussed. Hell, you can't even get the concept of compromise right."

was flat wrong. In fact probably something that you, in your persistent anger, would refer to as "a lie".

 

[TragicMonkey]

Here's one problem, or question, anyway:

Does it make sense to allow any man to use a women's restroom, locker room or similar segregated space for women, simply by declaring that he wants to do so?

That's one of the proposals on the table, and I wouldn't mind your take on it.

---

I think your third bathroom solves a separate but related problem: What to do for men who choose to present as women, and who are at risk of harassment or assault if they go into a men's bathroom.

Your solution is a bit of a compromise, which has been thoroughly discussed, so I won't re-hash it again.

---

Another solution, that has some support in trans-advocacy circles, is that transwomen should be allowed to decide for themselves. Pre-op, post-op, presenting, not presenting, notional-only, any man at any time is entitled to declare trans status and use a women's restroom.

This solution very nicely avoids the problem of how to verify that a transwoman is "legitimate" without having to resort to "papers please" or some other form of social or official inspection. That's a really big problem. It's definitely an advantage of this solution that it solves that problem.

It does, however, raise other problems, or potential problems, that have not yet really been addressed. Maybe your compromise is the closest we can get.

---

So.

Does it make sense to allow any man to use a women's restroom, locker room or similar segregated space for women, simply by declaring that he wants to do so?

What do you think?

I think that in order to use those rooms an individual should have made actual real steps to transition. Someone who hasn't taken hormones, who doesn't dress appropriate to the sex they declare, who isn't living like that sex doesn't strike me as being genuine in their transness. Declarations alone don't demonstrate reality. Changing sex requires an enormous amount of work. If someone's not going to do any of the work why should they be allowed to enjoy the fruits of the labor?

Which incidentally is a very Catholic POV: "faith alone" is just thinking nice thoughts. You've got to do something for it to count.

But that's all just my personal opinion, I have neither the means or the desire to make other people abide by it.

 

[Myriad]

I am not willing to call victory/defeat a compromise.

You seem to have overlooked that I support the proposition you make, since it hands victory to the point of view that I agree with. You have not proposed anything less than victory. I don't need luck!

It just isn't a compromise. Crikey, talk about alternative reality . . .

It's a compromise because the spectrum of points of view is broader than the range between your own, TM's, and the trans-rights extremists'.

The unimaginable, not-an-option, unacceptable, definitely-off-the-table "solution" consisting of "everyone may only use the restroom designated for the sex on their birth certificate" was enacted into law in North Carolina.

Meanwhile in Massachusetts, the supporters of a failed anti trans rights ballot initiative (to repeal trans rights laws already in effect for two years at that point) failed to turn up a single reported incident of rest room peril related to transgender rest room usage. Illegal behavior such as exhibitionism or harassment remains illegal in bathrooms, but it's understood that e.g. "making me uncomfortable due to having a beard and probably a penis too" is not illegal behavior. A lot of work goes on behind the scenes at schools to best accommodate everyone's bathroom needs and rights (and only secondarily, wishes) on an individual basis. Something that was unheard of a few years ago. But then, so was accommodating individual special education needs and rights, when I was in elementary school.

 

[caveman1917]

Ask an endocrinologist. I'm giving you the general idea and why you're wrong about your over-simplification.

So you admit you can't make your own argument on this? Have you missed me referencing paper after paper on endocrinology, and specifically the relation between hormones and behavior, to support my argument whereas you have referenced...nothing whatsoever?

I didn't said it didn't exist. I said I wasn't aware of it. If anyone can't tell the difference between the two, it's you.

So tell me then, how can testosterone cause men to be more aggressive in general than women if cultures exist where men are less aggressive than women? Do some cultures have different versions of testosterone?

Seriously, if you can't keep track of such a simple argument, why are you even on a forum like this one?

Just admit you're completely out of your depth, tried to bluff your way through it, and when called on it had to admit you can't even present the model you claim to be defending.

 

[caveman1917]

I have not seen them. Didn't know they existed, wonder if we are going to be shown.

Neither have I. I've seen one group, referred to as TRAs, who argue that any male claiming to be a woman should be free to enter female bathrooms/prisons/... and another, referred to as TERFs, who I've mostly seen argue for a third bathroom/prison/... for those males who don't want to use the men's facilities.

 

[Belz...]

You are overly fond of that word.

Well, you know I didn't say that, and you pretended that I did, so unless you were making a joke somehow, you were lying. It's not my fault if people have such a problem with honesty in these discussions.

Compromise over bathroom access has been raised numerous times over the course of this thread.

Yes, but telling TM that his solution is not a compromise, or not much of one, isn't the same thing as saying that we're against the very idea of compromise, which was TM's complaint. In fact, telling him that is the exact opposite, since it's complaining about it not being enough of a compromise! That was what my response to him, and which you responded to, was about.

For some reason you pretended that what I meant was that restrooms weren't discussed before TM brought it up. In fact, it has nothing to do with it in any way. So how you could possibly respond with what you did is completely baffling to me, unless, as I opined, you were being deliberately disingenuous.

So again nothing you said had anything to do with the post you responded to.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Well the problem is the only people willing to put any requirements beyond "Whatever I say" on what it takes to be "real" transgender are not transgender people... who in turn are not allowed to put "rules" on transgender people.

Somewhere on the increasingly long list of questions I've given up hoping to get an answer to in this topic is if "I say so" isn't the sole defining characteristic of transgender (and honestly if we're gonna define it by concepts like "self identity" is sort has to be or it turns it a pure nightmare of somehow having "No True Scotsman" in a group that's purely self identified) then... what... are... the... defining... characteristics?

TM has brought up things like actively transitioning in a medical sense, but that goes completely against the "gender identity" thing and takes right back to "You're not an X, you just want to be" and if that's where we are at AGAIN IS THE PROBLEM?

 

[Belz...]

So you admit you can't make your own argument on this?

What a strange question, since you're responding to an argument I've made on this.

So tell me then, how can testosterone cause men to be more aggressive in general than women if cultures exist where men are less aggressive than women?

You've not demonstrated your premise (five incidents, really?), and I've already answered this question. You just don't like the answer.

Just admit you're completely out of your depth, tried to bluff your way through it, and when called on it had to admit you can't even present the model you claim to be defending.

I won't admit to something you made up out of thin air. I know you want to stroke your ego here, but you'll have to do it without me.

 

[d4m10n]

The entire stated purpose of the transgender movement by its definition rejects having the wrong gender role or a special third gender role placed on them.

Then it should be super easy to come up with a specific example of a transwoman rejecting the third bathroom option.