Cont: Brexit: Now What? 7th heaven...

[The Atheist]

Labour motion fails:

Comedy genius of the week.

My default is failing to run a 4-minute mile, and no legislation could make me do it even if I were willing.

You're not thinking outside the box.

You could easily run a 4-minute mile is the hill is steep enough.

Which is exactly the thinking behind Brexit - yes, it can be done, and damn any consequences.

 

[McHrozni]

Sadly it seems that my pessimistic assessment was right. A handful of Tory rebels offset by a larger number of Labour dissenters.

The politics of UK rarely manage not to dissapoint.

Which Labour MPs dissented and ... why?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

Yes, but how can you legislate to avoid the default? What would replace it that might survive a vote?

Eh, easy. Legislate so the PM is obligated to do everything in his/her/its power to avoid a no deal, up to and including revoking article 50 if all other options are exhausted.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

If it's any comfort, the food shortages that very well may follow Brexit may result in a reduction of the incidence of Type-2 (a.k.a bad) diabetes.

Paradoxically, no. Food shortages will reduce food variety first and foremost, greatly increasing the consumption of starchy foods with high GI and decrease the uptake in fiber. This is more likely to increase the incidence of type-2 diabetes.

It's what happened in Venezuela.

Those with Type-1 (a.k.a. good) diabetes can be cured just by touching Nigel Farage's tweed suit - such is the power of Brexit.

I'm pretty sure that's fatal, but I suppose there's more than one way to cure a disease.

McHrozni

 

[The Don]

The politics of UK rarely manage not to dissapoint.

Which Labour MPs dissented and ... why?

McHrozni

The dissenters were:

Kevin Barron, Ronnie Campbell, Jim Fitzpatrick, Caroline Flint, Stephen Hepburn, Kate Hoey, John Mann and Graham Stringer.

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...n-parties-fail-bid-block-no-deal-brexit-after

They look like the Labour Party's arch Brexiteers.

 

[The Don]

Paradoxically, no. Food shortages will reduce food variety first and foremost, greatly increasing the consumption of starchy foods with high GI and decrease the uptake in fiber. This is more likely to increase the incidence of type-2 diabetes.

It's what happened in Venezuela.

Depends how it's done I guess. During WWII when the UK had rationing in place the overall population health improved - I'm not sure if Type 2 diabetes was specifically being monitored.

Also, as I hope the sarcastic smiley showed, I wasn't being serious.

I'm pretty sure that's fatal, but I suppose there's more than one way to cure a disease.

McHrozni

Anyone (or indeed any business) which doesn't survive the great Brexit adventure is clearly unpatriotic and will be airbrushed out of existence.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Eh, easy. Legislate so the PM is obligated to do everything in his/her/its power to avoid a no deal, up to and including revoking article 50 if all other options are exhausted.

McHrozni

Can the UK still revoke article 50? I know they could until the 29th of March but now the two year period has run out are they not still in the EU solely at the whim of the remaining 27 who would have to agree to the UK remaining?

 

[GlennB]

Eh, easy. Legislate so the PM is obligated to do everything in his/her/its power to avoid a no deal, up to and including revoking article 50 if all other options are exhausted.

McHrozni

"The European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruling last year confirmed that the UK could revoke Article 50 itself, without having to ask the other 27 EU countries for permission.

This could be done by writing a letter to the European Council, made up of EU heads of state.

The ECJ said the UK would then remain a member of the EU on the same terms - as it has now - including keeping its budget rebate.

But it did set some conditions.

The ruling said revocation should be "unequivocal and unconditional", suggesting that the UK could not simply revoke Article 50 in order to buy more time and then resubmit it at a later date."

Which says to me that revoking A50 is tantamount to choosing to remain.

 

[Greebo]

Can the UK still revoke article 50? I know they could until the 29th of March but now the two year period has run out are they not still in the EU solely at the whim of the remaining 27 who would have to agree to the UK remaining?

My source may not be 100% reliable (daughter, who did her MLb in EU Law) - yes as long as all countries agree
Edit, the same applies for any extension IIRC

 

[McHrozni]

Depends how it's done I guess. During WWII when the UK had rationing in place the overall population health improved - I'm not sure if Type 2 diabetes was specifically being monitored.

I know. It's a damning conviction of pre-WW2 British died, that's for sure.

Anyone (or indeed any business) which doesn't survive the great Brexit adventure is clearly unpatriotic and will be airbrushed out of existence.

Sounds about right, yes.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

"The European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruling last year confirmed that the UK could revoke Article 50 itself, without having to ask the other 27 EU countries for permission.

This could be done by writing a letter to the European Council, made up of EU heads of state.

The ECJ said the UK would then remain a member of the EU on the same terms - as it has now - including keeping its budget rebate.

But it did set some conditions.

The ruling said revocation should be "unequivocal and unconditional", suggesting that the UK could not simply revoke Article 50 in order to buy more time and then resubmit it at a later date."

Which says to me that revoking A50 is tantamount to choosing to remain.

Indeed it is. Parliament would have to legislate that if the options boil to no-deal Brexit and Bremain they chose Bremain and instruct PM to act accordingly. It would be up to PM to obtain alternative solutions which would be acceptable to Parliament and EU. If he/she/it can't, there is no Brexit.

Kind of how democracy is supposed to work you know?

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

https://www.politicshome.com/news/u...n-parties-fail-bid-block-no-deal-brexit-after

They look like the Labour Party's arch Brexiteers.

Vermin. Very few Tories broke ranks too - but enough to push the law through, if Labour ranks held.

McHrozni

 

[Lothian]

"The European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruling last year confirmed that the UK could revoke Article 50 itself, without having to ask the other 27 EU countries for permission.

This could be done by writing a letter to the European Council, made up of EU heads of state.

The ECJ said the UK would then remain a member of the EU on the same terms - as it has now - including keeping its budget rebate.

But it did set some conditions.

The ruling said revocation should be "unequivocal and unconditional", suggesting that the UK could not simply revoke Article 50 in order to buy more time and then resubmit it at a later date."

Which says to me that revoking A50 is tantamount to choosing to remain.

No, think it just means that if we revoke we need to start the article 50 process again from scratch. We can't revoke then start again with a 'where did we get to' . In practice however we should do what 'vote leave' promised in their manifesto which was not to trigger Article 50 until we has agreed the future deal, which they said would include retention of free trade with the EU.
It is May that cocked up by triggering Article 50 before realising that 2 years might not be long enough to negotiate a deal so she instead decided to negotiate a temporary deal to take us from brexit to Dec 2020 with no real changes to allow time for a fully negotiated deal to take effect after that. Unfortunately she couldn't manage that after realising that 2020 might be too soon and a backstop would be required. It went downhill from there.

All we need to do to leave and make everyone happy is revoke article 50. Put the country's best talent, Johnstone, Leadsom, Gove, Farage, Rees-Mogg, Corbin on the case. When they have negotiated the deal promised

Free trade with the EU, No movement of Labour, full control over our borders, £350bn a week saving, No border checks, and no extension of the ECJ's jurisdiction to the UK, protection of workers rights. Better trade deals with the rest of the world. A seat for the UK on all the big tables.

We can trigger Article 50 and leave.

 

[The Don]

Vermin. Very few Tories broke ranks too - but enough to push the law through, if Labour ranks held.

McHrozni

.....then they wouldn't be the Labour Party. I was a party member for nearly 25 years and I got the clear impression that there is a proportion of members and MPs who are contrary just for the sake of it.

I know that the majority of MPs claim that they are not in favour of a no-deal Brexit but the fact that they're not willing to actually do anything to prevent it leads me to believe that the vast majority of Conservative MPs, and a significant minority of Labour MPs actively want it to happen.

 

[Tolls]

.....then they wouldn't be the Labour Party. I was a party member for nearly 25 years and I got the clear impression that there is a proportion of members and MPs who are contrary just for the sake of it.

One of them is the current leader of the Labour party, of course.

 

[McHrozni]

.....then they wouldn't be the Labour Party. I was a party member for nearly 25 years and I got the clear impression that there is a proportion of members and MPs who are contrary just for the sake of it.

I know that the majority of MPs claim that they are not in favour of a no-deal Brexit but the fact that they're not willing to actually do anything to prevent it leads me to believe that the vast majority of Conservative MPs, and a significant minority of Labour MPs actively want it to happen.

It's actually a somewhat rational position for Labour MPs to hold. Brexit is a Tory project, organized as a Tory way to resolve internal party conflict. The referendum was proposed and legislated for by a Tory governing majority, article 50 was invoked by a Tory PM and if there is a no deal Brexit it will be a Tory government overseeing the disaster.

Much like Trump, the no deal Brexit has the potential to soil the Tory brand for time immemorial, relegating them to a minor local party and banishing them from national politics forever. The new opposition from the right will come from a group splintering off the useless, corrupt remainder of what was once "the natural party of government".

If you accept the potential the potential to rule the country as the undisputed ruling party for a generation as large enough to be worth whatever damage the no deal Brexit crisis will bring then sabotaging any resolution to the issue is a rational position. Yes, it is corruption that is worth a firing squad or worse (HD'n'Q?), yes, it is horrible, but the position itself may well be rational. Until you vote against your party whip anyway.

Tory MPs? Beats me. Maybe they just really, really, really want to change careers but don't want to quit or something.

McHrozni

 

[McHrozni]

One of them is the current so-called 'leader' of the Labour party, of course.

FTFY

McHrozni

 

[The Don]

It's actually a somewhat rational position for Labour MPs to hold. Brexit is a Tory project, organized as a Tory way to resolve internal party conflict. The referendum was proposed and legislated for by a Tory governing majority, article 50 was invoked by a Tory PM and if there is a no deal Brexit it will be a Tory government overseeing the disaster.

Much like Trump, the no deal Brexit has the potential to soil the Tory brand for time immemorial, relegating them to a minor local party and banishing them from national politics forever. The new opposition from the right will come from a group splintering off the useless, corrupt remainder of what was once "the natural party of government".

If you accept the potential the potential to rule the country as the undisputed ruling party for a generation as large enough to be worth whatever damage the no deal Brexit crisis will bring then sabotaging any resolution to the issue is a rational position. Yes, it is corruption that is worth a firing squad or worse (HD'n'Q?), yes, it is horrible, but the position itself may well be rational. Until you vote against your party whip anyway.

Tory MPs? Beats me. Maybe they just really, really, really want to change careers but don't want to quit or something.

McHrozni

That's a logical way of looking at it, unfortunately that's not the way the British psyche and electorate seem to work

The worse the impact of Brexit and the more dire the outcome, the more likely it is that the "Blitz Spirit" will cut in and rather than losing support, the government will likely gain support and the British people, rather than rejecting a no-deal Brexit will embrace it.

 

[Samson]

There is no leverage whatsoever. There never was any. There is none now. There won't be any in future.

It seems Britain is flouncing but left the handbag.
Do not flounce out of the party and leave your handbag behind!

 

[Samson]

My analysis is simple
A no deal Brexit is dead in the water due to numbers in parliament..
Brussels will not renegotiate the Theresa May deal Brexit.
That deal will never get the votes.
Therefore Brexit is in a state of permanent hiatus while business as usual.

This looks like modal logic 101 to me.

ETA: This looks like a huge victory for the EU federation, Britain shoots both feet, no further wagging of the finger needed to other dissident states.