Ten years without Yitzhak Rabin

Cleopatra

Philosopher
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Yitzhak Rabin was a real patriot. I will never NEVER forget the look on his face when he took the hand of Yasser Arafat that afternoon. He was skeptical. He was in stress and unlike Arafat who was all smiles, he couldn't pretend that he was happy but he gave his hand and that moment we knew that he intended to keep his word.

The coward that has assassinated him has harmed Israel tremendously. He has made the whole world skeptical regarding our willingness to find a solution to the problem.

The "tens of thousands of people" though that rallied in Tel Aviv to commemorate his death speak volumes about the fatigue of the Israeli people and their willingness to find a way out of this hell.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4431728.stm

Tens of thousands of people have been attending a rally in Tel Aviv at the spot where Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin was killed 10 years ago.

Former US President Bill Clinton paid tribute to Rabin, urging the crowds to "see through" his peace initiatives.

Rabin, who signed the Oslo accords with the Palestinians, was shot by an Israeli extremist on 4 November 1995.

State ceremonies to mark the event are being held now, the anniversary in accordance with the Hebrew calendar.
 
The coward that has assassinated him has harmed Israel tremendously. He has made the whole world skeptical regarding our willingness to find a solution to the problem.

Yes, but only by people who think it's reasonable to look upon the actions of one man as evidence of the motivations of a nation.
 
The coward that has assassinated him has harmed Israel tremendously. He has made the whole world skeptical regarding our willingness to find a solution to the problem.

It drew the world's attention to how fragmented Israeli society is. You'll recall my opinon that, if Israel ever feels secure from outside threat, the civil war can start.

What really shocked me was the subsequent election of Netenyahu. A sticky-fingered lounge-lizard living off his family name, who had been at the very least inflammatory about Rabin. And a vocal rejectionist. The religio-nationalist extreme has gained in political strength since the assassination, when it should have been finished by it.
 
What worries me is the people who want the assasin freed and treated like a hero. If that were to happen, it would be another nail in the coffin of Israeli democracy.

Fortunately, the massive rally to remember the occasion holds out hope.

We will just have to wait and see.
 
What worries me is the people who want the assasin freed and treated like a hero. If that were to happen, it would be another nail in the coffin of Israeli democracy.

Fortunately, the massive rally to remember the occasion holds out hope.

We will just have to wait and see.

Exactly how many people do you think are like this?
 
In my own recollections

In the weeks leading up to the murder of the Prime minister, it was my misfortune to hear from many of my fellow Israelis that Rabin should be killed.

In almost a dozen different discussions with acquiantances of mine who identified with the right-wing of Israeli politics, that was the theme:
"Someone should kill him, he deserves it for being a traitor"

I closed my shop on the day of the funeral and posted a Death Notice on the window, in a show of respect (these black-bordered sheets of paper are traditionally placed around the family's neighborhood upon the death of a loved one, and in this case, the tragedy was magnified as all of Israel was the 'neighborhood').

That notice was marked over with a swastika, my storefront was marked with a swastika, by a right-wing maniac who thought that Rabin's murder was perfectly OK, since Rabin was a Nazi.

Just sayin' -- anecdotal and not evidence of anything.
 
It drew the world's attention to how fragmented Israeli society is. You'll recall my opinon that, if Israel ever feels secure from outside threat, the civil war can start.

Yes, I am aware of your opinion. The more I think about it, the more unlikely it seems to me. Of course, much of controversy is expected but civil war? Hardly. Killings, seriously object to the jewish culture. If some clashes occur, they will be really marginal.

Today, I was reading in The Economist about Israel's miracle in High Techonology. People who do have to lose something they have created, they are very cautius when it comes to conflicts.

Also, note that during the evacuation of Gaza we didn't have any really serious episodes apart from the understandable demonstrations. Gaza was a serious test.

What really shocked me was the subsequent election of Netenyahu. A sticky-fingered lounge-lizard living off his family name, who had been at the very least inflammatory about Rabin. And a vocal rejectionist. The religio-nationalist extreme has gained in political strength since the assassination, when it should have been finished by it.

I felt the same after the elections in Spain. One single bomb blew and Spaniards let Al Qaeda to dictate their political future,think how they would react if they had to live with the situation that people in Middle East have to live.
The electoral body is a strange beast but mind you! It always pays for the choices it has made under sentimental pressure.
 
I felt the same after the elections in Spain. One single bomb blew and Spaniards let Al Qaeda to dictate their political future
Um, no, they didn't. I don't recall Spain becoming an Islamic Theocracy, do you?

If al-Qaeda had attacked Spain after Spain had become involved in the conflict for good and justifiable reasons, I suspect that the Spanish would have been outraged and dedicated themselves completely to the cause. The Spanish voted out their government because they believed they had been made into a target over a series of lies and deceptions.
 
Um, no, they didn't. I don't recall Spain becoming an Islamic Theocracy, do you?

Who has become an Islamic Theocracy?

If al-Qaeda had attacked Spain after Spain had become involved in the conflict for good and justifiable reasons, I suspect that the Spanish would have been outraged and dedicated themselves completely to the cause. The Spanish voted out their government because they believed they had been made into a target over a series of lies and deceptions.

Although I am not a great fan of polls, I am a great fan of european politics that observe from a really close distance. Socialist's party win was a gift from Al Qaeda.

If you are interested in having this discussiong with me, I am willing to trace the old threads and move the discussion about this issue there.
 
What really shocked me was the subsequent election of Netenyahu.

It's always amusing when those who consider israel an illegitimate country with no right to exist, and are at best indifferent to the jihad against it, are shocked, shocked, that it dares to elect someone they dislike, and who might even have been a conservative or something.
 
It's always amusing when those who consider israel an illegitimate country with no right to exist, and are at best indifferent to the jihad against it, are shocked, shocked, that it dares to elect someone they dislike, and who might even have been a conservative or something.

Well, don't forget he likes Jews that are properly docile. In that Israel is constantly disappointing him.
 
I felt the same after the elections in Spain. One single bomb blew and Spaniards let Al Qaeda to dictate their political future,think how they would react if they had to live with the situation that people in Middle East have to live.
The electoral body is a strange beast but mind you! It always pays for the choices it has made under sentimental pressure.

'Scuse me, but that's not what I think happened. At first the public believed ETA was responsible for the bombing. When they learned Al-Qaeda was the true culprit, many voters lashed out at the media and Aznar's government, believing the two had colluded to deceive the public.
 
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Cleopatra said:
Who has become an Islamic Theocracy?
Iraqi Constitution Preamble:
In the name of God, the most merciful, the most compassionate. We have honored the sons of Adam. Acknowledging God's right over us, and in fulfillment of the call of our homeland and citizens, and in response to the call of our religious and national leaderships and the determination of our great (religious) authorities.
Iraqi Constitution Article 2:
Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation
Iraqi Constitution Article 2A:
No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.
Iraqi Constitution Article 3:
Iraq is a part of the Islamic world.
The Federal Supreme Court shall be made up of number of judges, and experts in Islamic jurisprudence.
 
Well, don't forget he likes Jews that are properly docile. In that Israel is constantly disappointing him.

Just curious... Are you going to accuse CapelDodger of being an anti-Semite too? Or, while you're at it, a communist anti-Semite?
 
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Just curious... Are you going to accuse CapelDodger of being an anti-Semite too? Or, while you're at it, a communist anti-Semite?
Mycroft does not accuse, he implies. That way he can duck back under his stone squealing "I never said that!" if anyone objects.

Cleopatra: Mycroft thinks you're docile. Just thought you ought to know that. :eye-poppi
 
What really shocked me was the subsequent election of Netenyahu.

It's always amusing when those who consider israel an illegitimate country with no right to exist, and are at best indifferent to the jihad against it, are shocked, shocked, that it dares to elect someone they dislike, and who might even have been a conservative or something.
Israel is regarded as a legitimate country by most Israelis. They think so, partly, because of the principles they think it enshrines. Democracy, the rule of law, things like that. By such principles Rabin's work should not have been terminated by an assassin. But it was. Even when the alternative was as tawdry as Netenyahu. It was a shock to me.
 
Yes, I am aware of your opinion. The more I think about it, the more unlikely it seems to me. Of course, much of controversy is expected but civil war? Hardly. Killings, seriously object to the jewish culture. If some clashes occur, they will be really marginal.
Zionism is not Jewish culture. If anything it's in the process of killing Jewish culture and assuming its identity. Zionism did not achieve its ends in 1949 and disband as an ideology. Its ends include the Land of Israel, as understood from the Histories. That is not the aim of all Israelis, far from it, but it continues to be the aim of a powerful segment of Israel. That segment was originally motivated by rational, secular nationalism - complete control of the Jordan and the lower Litani were regarded as vital for a viable state - but of late religion has had to be recruited to keep the momentum going. Very, very dangerous. Originally the religious rhetoric was meant to motivate the Christians who made Israel possible. The weird travesty of Judaism displayed in the Gaza Strip this summer is not programmed for compromise.

Then there's the military to think about. Where would they be in a normal, secure state? What would they be? "Israel is the Army, the Army is Israel". Slogans do come back and bite you on the arse sometimes. The army has become much more professional since the First Intifada, much more Middle Eastern, and has spent a lot of time with the settlers - perhaps more than they have with normal Israelis. The prospect of peace could well lead to a split in the military, perhaps even a coup.

Then there's the Russians, but best not go there. All in all, a civil war is still on my list of most likelies. Assuming some good prospect of a two-state solution, of course, which is seriously hypothetical.

Today, I was reading in The Economist about Israel's miracle in High Techonology. People who do have to lose something they have created, they are very cautius when it comes to conflicts.
Israel is not noted for being cautious about conflicts. Eager to start them, reluctant to end them, yes, but not cautious. Ideology is the problem, not rationality.

Also, note that during the evacuation of Gaza we didn't have any really serious episodes apart from the understandable demonstrations. Gaza was a serious test.
The retreat from Gaza has provided the betrayal, a potent element in civil division. Right up to the last moment the hold-outs were declaring that it wouldn't happen, the Army wouldn't do it, the god would intervene, the Israeli people would intervene. But it happened. Israel turned against them, so it isn't Israel, it's the Anti-Israel. Stir that into a teenage audience and see what happens a few years down the line.
 
The death of Rabin is for me a symbol of the beginning of my decline in optimism. It had reached a peak with his famous handshake with Arafat. I had seen the apparent end of two conflicts (israeli-palestinian and US-Russia) that I never expected to subside in my lifetime. A better world seemed more possible than ever, I was no longer in stark fear of nuclear war, the economy was doing great, and there was a Democrat in office that wasn't an idiot. Damn, I miss those days.
 
The death of Rabin is for me a symbol of the beginning of my decline in optimism. It had reached a peak with his famous handshake with Arafat. I had seen the apparent end of two conflicts (israeli-palestinian and US-Russia) that I never expected to subside in my lifetime. A better world seemed more possible than ever, I was no longer in stark fear of nuclear war, the economy was doing great, and there was a Democrat in office that wasn't an idiot. Damn, I miss those days.
Also Mandela walked free and there was a peace process in Northern Ireland. Even I, terminal-stage cynic, verged on the starry-eyed. Then it all turned to ashes in the mouth. Just as I knew it would.

Remember how Islamist terrorism wasn't a big issue back then?
 
Mycroft does not accuse, he implies. That way he can duck back under his stone squealing "I never said that!" if anyone objects.

Yes, that is such common behavior from me. :oldroll:

I say you like your Jews docile because I remember a conversation you participated in a long time ago about Chaim Weizmann. At the time you said his great crime was to create the appearance of Jewish power in his lobbying for the Zionist cause. At the time I pointed out that the appearance of Jewish power could only be objectionable if actual Jewish power was also objectionable, and our disagreement went on from there.

Does that make you an anti-Semite? I don’t know, but I do know that Jewish power either in its appearance or in its actualization is not something a normal person should consider to be objectionable.

Cleopatra: Mycroft thinks you're docile. Just thought you ought to know that. :eye-poppi

Cleopatra is what she chooses to be. If sometimes that choice is to be docile, I would still hesitate to use that adjective because docile by choice isn’t really docile at all.
 

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