Trans Women are not Women

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Blanchard coined the term because he thought the previous term was either inappropriate or a bit demeaning or something like that.
Whatever the term is, I can easily believe that many men would seek to deny its existence and rubbish it. Not just trans identifiers.

I think that the (rather common and mainstream) attraction of a significant fraction of men to lesbianism (something that men are neither involved in nor required for) is inextricably linked to autogynaephilia. I suspect few men would agree that this attraction has anything to do with imagining oneself as female. I know what I think about that though (but I can't prove it)
 
I assume you're male, and by the sound of it hetero? Have you been hit on much by typical, insatiably promiscuous homos? Maybe you're not as good-looking, lithe and athletic as I was (I confess I can't really be described thus at the age I am now)? I can tell you, in my late teens and even beyond it made me very uncomfortable, but as I got older the sheer presumptuousness just pissed me off.

This highlighted portion describes my experience of catcalling and being cold-approached by guys precisely. I'm tired of being told it's a compliment. It's ******* not.
 
Conversely I can count on the fingers of one finger the number of times a lesbian has made a pass at me, and that was confined to suggestive glances and wigged eyebrows from the other side of a biochemistry lab.

I only figured it out weeks later when she started going out with another woman on the staff who actually was a lesbian.
 
1) You've not given me an answer.
2) There's no specific context. I'm asking you how you define the term. Do you ask someone for context if they ask you to define "table"? Surely the definition of "trans" doesn't depend on a specific context, here?
3) That's because so far all the definitions given, as I already said, amount to "they feel like a woman". How else would I describe it if not self-reported feelings and nothing else? That follows directly from the definition!

It seems like you simply know you can't come up with a definition that makes sense, so you're trying to blame your failure on someone else, namely me.

I did not.

But that's not what I'm looking for. Why would I read something that won't answer my question?

Stop dodging.

I still agree with the diagnostic criteria already linked to more than once. You've already decided that it is all 'just feels' so I decline your game. It seems to me you know you can't argue with the actual definition, and thus stick with your 'understanding' against all explanation.

Agreed.

But I don't see the relevance. Unless these are claims that the Blanchard guy has made. If they are I think that discredits him, but not the theory, nay reality, that autogynaephilia exists, is common, and manifests in varying degrees from fun to severe sex dysphoria.

Well I've already linked to discussions of Blanchard's claims there, although I understand your confusion. He and his supporters equivocate consonantly which does not help. They also used poor naming judgement because 'autogynophilia' is used both as the overal name of the hypothesis and a specific aspect of it. (Some researchers resort to calling the hypothesis 'BAT' to help differentiate it from the trait.)

If my links aren't good enough, I'll just quote from Rolfe's link she just reposted and say that Blanchard's view is that, "Some of these adults had gender dysphoria during adolescence, but all of them had the root cause of their condition: autogynephilia." and, "Blanchard provided persuasive evidence that the other male gender patients were autogynephilic. We currently favor the theory that there are only two well established kinds of gender dysphoria among males, because no convincing evidence for any other types has been offered." The emphasis obviously mine.

As for the 'can't apply these metrics to cis women', if you feel arousal by dressing in sexy women's underwear, you're engaged in the same arousal that trans women feel, in the same way that straight women and gay men are both aroused sexually by the thought of sex with men. Further, using this autogynophilia as a metric would be like saying you are a woman based on wanting sexual interactions with men, which denies the existence of lesbians and gay men. One pair of '**** me' heels would be enough to say that a cis woman was engaged in the same behavior and though that autogynophilic trans women (which is not all of them, despite what Blanchard et al insist) engage in.

Using trans women behaving as cis women do as the cause of trans women being trans women is circular.

From Charles Moser's Blanchard's Autogynephilia Theory: A Critique

“Have youever felt sexually aroused when putting on women’s underwear, stockingsor a nightgown?” (p. 243). All the items in this scale use the term “ever,”emphasizing that even one episode in the distant past factored into the score on this scale.

...

Blanchard (1985b; Blanchard,Clemmensen, & Steiner, 1985) and Lawrence (2004, 2005, 2006) dismiss their denials and insist that they are still autogynephilic.

....

If the impetus for gender transition is a paraphilia (autogynephilia), then reduction of the sex interest should decrease the desire for the transition. Low testosterone, either due to anti-androgens or other causes, is associated
800C. Moser with decreased sexual interest in individuals with or without a paraphilia. Estrogen acts to decrease testosterone levels, but most transsexuals are pre-scribed anti-androgens to reduce further their testosterone level, often to the undetectable range. The result is often decreased sexual interest, as expected, but this rarely causes any discomfort or regret. Most MTFs report their drive for gender transition is unabated; Blanchard (1991) also observed this same phenomenon.

Support groups comprised of individuals with similar sexual interests appear effective at reducing ego-dystonic arousal to unusual sexual interests (see Kleinplatz & Moser, 2004; Moser, 1988). Many, if not most MTFs, participate in these support groups either online or in person. It seems“ego-dystonic paraphilic arousal” is rare among individuals who are diagnosed with traditional, noncriminal, paraphilias and there is no evidence that “ego-dystonic paraphilic arousal” is more than temporary phase for most transsexuals.

Like the Serano critique and Wyndzen examinations, Moser's work illustrates several fatal flaws with the work.

And again, that is not to say that the research itself was of no value, but that the hypothesis/conclusions are not supported and have not had any utility in treatment.

Tyr appears to have absolutely no idea what Blanchard's typography actually says. Every time he mentions it he grossly misrepresents it. If you read the article I linked to above, which was co-authored by Blanchard, you can find out what he's actually saying. It's nothing like what Tyr is saying. He makes up a straw man and then attacks that.

You should read you link. It also says, back to back, "Autogynephilia is a paraphilia, meaning an unusual sexual interest nearly exclusively found in males.

We repeat: Autogynephilia is a sexual orientation–to be sure, an unusual orientation that is difficult to understand. There is no evidence that parents can change their children’s sexual orientations. And we don’t think they should try."

Well which is it? Is heterosexuality a paraphilia was well then? See the above quotes from your very link.

Your link is mostly Blanchard and company trying to deal with his hypothesis' complete failure to deal with a HUGE segment of trans gender people, but it does not change his specific claims on trans women.
 
Well I've already linked to discussions of Blanchard's claims there
It doesn't matter, and I don't care. I am making my own claims. "Debunking Blanchard" as you are seeking to do is neither here nor there. Respond to what I write if you wish.

As for the 'can't apply these metrics to cis women'
No female can desire to be female while not being. This indicates a large failure on your part to understand remotely what this (autogynaephilia) is about.
 
And he persistently uses the insulting term "cis", despite being told it's offensive. I'll bet if I was repeatedly referring to "trannies" he wouldn't be very happy.
 
I still agree with the diagnostic criteria already linked to more than once. You've already decided that it is all 'just feels' so I decline your game.

You really can't just help but lie, can you? You can't provide any one definition, or at least quote one and say you'll use that one. You KNOW that any definition you come up with will not be based on some objective diagnosis or analysis, but will ultimately derive solely from the perception of the trans person themselves. In other words, you KNOW that any definition you'd use would indeed be entirely based on feelings and, knowing that it's a weak argument that you would yourself dismiss if it came from someone else, are trying to turn that into my problem by instead pretending that me dismissing it is somehow wrong! That takes balls, I have to admit.

It seems to me you know you can't argue with the actual definition

How would I know if you don't provide any definition? It's a very simple request. Can't you find a definition that ISN'T based on self-diagnosis?

The only one playing a game is you. You know full well that you can't bring forth an argument that would even convince you, so instead you decide to attack your opponents.
 
And he persistently uses the insulting term "cis", despite being told it's offensive.

I don't find it offensive. However, in most discussions it's pretty pointless, given the proportion of trans people.

If you have a car with an internal combustion engine, you don't feel the need to specify it, whereas if you have an electric car it'll come up almost every time. That's changing, but not because attitutes towards cars are changing, but because the proportions are changing.

That's not the case for trans people, so unless we're in a context that makes the use of "cis" useful, it's almost always left out and assumed.
 
It doesn't matter, and I don't care. I am making my own claims. "Debunking Blanchard" as you are seeking to do is neither here nor there. Respond to what I write if you wish.

No female can desire to be female while not being. This indicates a large failure on your part to understand remotely what this (autogynaephilia) is about.

If you don't want to discuss Blanchard, fine.

You're going to have a hard time understanding autogynaephilia if that's the case.


And he persistently uses the insulting term "cis", despite being told it's offensive. I'll bet if I was repeatedly referring to "trannies" he wouldn't be very happy.

You could report my post then for my 'offensive' use of the term.

Cosplaying the victim doesn't gain you any capital in rational arguments. But then again, you probably still think Blanchard didn't say what your own link says, so a rational argument probably isn't to be found here.

You really can't just help but lie, can you? You can't provide any one definition, or at least quote one and say you'll use that one.

Lie? Sure Belz. Sure.

If you want spoon feed and not just a citation, fine, I'll quote.

Gender dysphoria involves a conflict between a person's physical or assigned gender and the gender with which he/she/they identify. People with gender dysphoria may be very uncomfortable with the gender they were assigned, sometimes described as being uncomfortable with their body (particularly developments during puberty) or being uncomfortable with the expected roles of their assigned gender.

People with gender dysphoria may often experience significant distress and/or problems functioning associated with this conflict between the way they feel and think of themselves (referred to as experienced or expressed gender) and their physical or assigned gender.

The gender conflict affects people in different ways. It can change the way a person wants to express their gender and can influence behavior, dress and self-image. Some people may cross-dress, some may want to socially transition, others may want to medically transition with sex-change surgery and/or hormone treatment. Socially transitioning primarily involves transitioning into the affirmed gender’s pronouns and bathrooms.

People with gender dysphoria may allow themselves to express their true selves and may openly want to be affirmed in their gender identity. They may use clothes and hairstyles and adopt a new first name of their experienced gender. Similarly children with gender dysphoria may express the wish to be of the opposite gender and may assert they are (or will grow up to be) of the opposite gender. They prefer, or demand, clothing, hairstyles and to be called a name of the opposite gender. (Medical transition is only relevant at and after the onset of puberty.)

Gender dysphoria is not the same as gender nonconformity, which refers to behaviors not matching the gender norms or stereotypes of the gender assigned at birth. Examples of gender nonconformity (also referred to as gender expansiveness or gender creativity) include girls behaving and dressing in ways more socially expected of boys or occasional cross-dressing in adult men. Gender nonconformity is not a mental disorder. Gender dysphoria is also not the same being gay/lesbian.

While some children express feelings and behaviors relating to gender dysphoria at 4 years old or younger, many may not express feelings and behaviors until puberty or much later. For some children, when they experience puberty, they suddenly find themselves unable to identify with their own body. Some adolescents become unable to shower or wear a bathing suit and/or undertake self-harm behaviors.

That's the APA, actual experts that actual skeptics mighty actually cite and consider.

You KNOW that any definition you come up with will not be based on some objective diagnosis or analysis, but will ultimately derive solely from the perception of the trans person themselves. In other words, you KNOW that any definition you'd use would indeed be entirely based on feelings and, knowing that it's a weak argument that you would yourself dismiss if it came from someone else, are trying to turn that into my problem by instead pretending that me dismissing it is somehow wrong! That takes balls, I have to admit.



How would I know if you don't provide any definition? It's a very simple request. Can't you find a definition that ISN'T based on self-diagnosis?

The only one playing a game is you. You know full well that you can't bring forth an argument that would even convince you, so instead you decide to attack your opponents.

Good job arguing your way into heterosexuality being invalid. Well argued.

You refuse to do your due diligence to understand the most basic ways of diagnosing a whole host of conditions, traits, and even basic characteristics, and that's why you're still going to argue it is 'all feels'.

Keep playing that game. You've decided and evidence no longer matters to you.

Edited by zooterkin: 
<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

I understand the feeling, but that doesn't help.
 
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I don't find it offensive. However, in most discussions it's pretty pointless, given the proportion of trans people.

If you have a car with an internal combustion engine, you don't feel the need to specify it, whereas if you have an electric car it'll come up almost every time. That's changing, but not because attitutes towards cars are changing, but because the proportions are changing.

That's not the case for trans people, so unless we're in a context that makes the use of "cis" useful, it's almost always left out and assumed.


That's not quite the point. Women are women, and we don't need a qualifier. To insist on a qualifier is to imply that women are not the whole of the set that is women, if you take my point.

You don't say landhorses to distinguish them from seahorses.
 
That's only because them taking a third option isn't "sucking it up" just because you say so.

Split the hair however you want it, Rolfe thinks she has the right to make people who make her uncomfortable go away and doesn't think other people should have the same right.

If I don't like a gay man watching me get undressed in the locker room, I'm a homophobe. If Rolfe doesn't like a straight man watch her get undressed, she's not a sexist because....


Acknowledging a difference between men and women is not sexism, although I have seen numerous attempts to portray it as such.


As for being a homophobe if you don't like a gay man watching you undress, I think it is a little bit homophobic, and I think most guys are a little bit homophobic. We live in a world where people get to create labels, declare those labels to be bad, and then apply those labels to perfectly ordinary behavior.


The fact is that most guys are a little bit creeped out sharing a locker room and getting naked in front of a gay man. Most of us also have decided, "Oh, who gives a rat's ass", and just deal with our own discomfort because, really, it's not a big deal. Unless of course, the gay man is behaving oddly. If he is literally "watching" us undress, meaning ceasing what he is doing and actively observing us, as opposed to just taking a shower and inevitably seeing us naked, I think most guys would have at least some degree of discomfort, and for a fair number, that discomfort would take the form of actual hostility. If that's homophobia, oh well.





(FWIW, in my own personal experience, I can only think of one person that I knew to be gay when we were both naked in a locker room. No big deal. He didn't stare. I gave a little bit of thought to the fact that he was gay, which means at the very least I was aware of it, but didn't figure there was any real problem and that if I objected or even just suddenly decided to remain sweaty it would be a sign of weakness and/or insecurity anyway, so I took a shower.


I would not recommend the same course of action to a woman dealing with a male, unless specific circumstances existed where it would be considered normal to be naked in front of a male, e.g. having voluntarily entered a clothing optional, mixed gendered, facility.)
 
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The next section I read in the Serano critique of Blanchard's ideas is entitled "Correlation Does Not Imply Causation", and attacks Blanchard's theory that autogynephilic fantasies cause people to want to transition to the female sex. Serano, instead, argues that there is a correlation between autogynephilic fantasies and identification as transgender, but those fantasies are not causal.

I think it's a pretty reasonable section. It seems to me that Blanchard formed his ideas based on a very small set of data that was available in 1989. Subsequent, more expansive, research showed some limitations.

There are more sections to come, and I'll refrain from further comment on autogynephilia until I have read those sections, but it does seem to me that the idea that there are two and only two types of transgender MtF sorts is not supported by modern evidence. I think it would be unfair to say, though, that Blanchard's work has been "debunked" or "discredited". I think it is simply the case that more evidence is currently available, and that evidence shows that Blanchard's ideas describe many, but not all, MtF transgender people. (Note: Some people don't accept that Blanchard has correctly described anyone, but I haven't gotten to those sections of the paper, so I'll refrain until I do.)
 
That's not quite the point. Women are women, and we don't need a qualifier. To insist on a qualifier is to imply that women are not the whole of the set that is women, if you take my point.

You don't say landhorses to distinguish them from seahorses.

To me, I don't find the "cis" terms offensive, except for the fact that I find the underlying idea behind the terms to be incorrect. In other words, I disagree with the idea that transwomen are women, and so deliberate manipulation of the language to further that idea is somewhat irritating to me, but I don't feel I have some sort of right to object to the term.

And, sometimes, it is even necessary to describe the set of all people who are biological women, and who also identify as female. Saying that whole description is a mouthful, so "ciswoman" works. I won't say I like it, but I occasionally decide it's the path of least resistance for effective communication.
 
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To me, I don't find the "cis" terms offensive, except for the fact that I find the underlying idea behind the terms to be incorrect. In other words, I disagree with the idea that transwomen are women, and so deliberate manipulation of the language to further that idea is somewhat irritating to me, but I don't feel I have some sort of right to object to the term.

And, sometimes, it is even necessary to describe the set of all people who are biological women, and who also identify as female. Saying that whole description is a mouthful, so "ciswoman" works. I won't say I like it, but I occasionally decide it's the path of least resistance for effective communication.
They are called women

If they weren't women they would have a prefix like trans

Sent from my SM-J500Y using Tapatalk
 
"Women" also includes transmen.
Most of the time I would just say "women", but on rare occasions it could be inadequate.

That is actually a good argument, and believe it or not the first time I have heard it.

The usual is "But trans women are women!!"

At the end of the day if you want to know just women then they would be just women as well as chosing to identitfy as trans men.

Biologically women which is important for medical stuff like smear test etc, care in hospital, etc but identify as trans men, which is all a bit fluffy, touchy feely, but if that is their thing all cool.
 
If you don't want to discuss Blanchard, fine.
Apparently you don't wish to discuss anything I mentioned either.

You're going to have a hard time understanding autogynaephilia if that's the case.
On the contrary you wish to redefine this condition by leaving out a rather fundamental ingredient. Way to miss the entire point.
 
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