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Trans Women are not Women

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Now, irrespective of whether I agree with that, it sounds very similar to what you described about women. If we're asking trans women (actual trans women, that is) to suck it up, essentially, why can't we say the same to cis-women?
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I believe Rolfe and I have both tried to say we want to find a 3rd option, so no one has to suck it up.

So far, in almost 60 pages, only one person has come up with an idea for a reasonable compromise.
 
DragonLady said:
I believe Rolfe and I have both tried to say we want to find a 3rd option, so no one has to suck it up.
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That's only because them taking a third option isn't "sucking it up" just because you say so.

Split the hair however you want it, Rolfe thinks she has the right to make people who make her uncomfortable go away and doesn't think other people should have the same right.

If I don't like a gay man watching me get undressed in the locker room, I'm a homophobe. If Rolfe doesn't like a straight man watch her get undressed, she's not a sexist because....

Be aware the following are not valid answers:

- I'm a poor widdle scawed woman pearl clutching.
- Pointing at the "Official Progressive Victim Ranking Chart"
 
JoeMorgue said:
That's only because them taking a third option isn't "sucking it up" just because you say so.

Split the hair however you want it, Rolfe thinks she has the right to make people who make her uncomfortable go away and doesn't think other people should have the same right.

If I don't like a gay man watching me get undressed in the locker room, I'm a homophobe. If Rolfe doesn't like a straight man watch her get undressed, she's not a sexist because....
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Because many (most?) women have a lifetime's experience of suffering sexual harassment from men - harassment of various grades - and the extreme case of being forced to undress in front of biological men is asking too much? That the women's changing room is a refuge from all that low-grade hassle such as leering?

Meanwhile, how would you even know you're being ogled by a gay man, unless you're in a gay pub or club where it might be assumed that a single man could well be looking for some action?
 
JoeMorgue said:
I'm sure at some point I'll get answer as to why a woman being uncomfortable with a man watching them undress and a man being uncomfortable with a gay man watching them undress are so radically different.
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Does it matter if they aren't so radically different?

Are you arguing that since straight guys are expected to put up with gay guys checking them out even if it bothers them, fairness demands an end to women's changing rooms? A discomfort shared is a discomfort halved?
 
Belz... said:
(actual trans women, that is)
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Looking ahead in that paper by Serano I am reading, I think this phrase will be the problematic one. I am not certain of that, but I think finding a way to identify, or even define, "actual transwomen" will prove problematic.
 
DragonLady said:
I believe Rolfe and I have both tried to say we want to find a 3rd option, so no one has to suck it up.

So far, in almost 60 pages, only one person has come up with an idea for a reasonable compromise.
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I don't think a reasonable compromise is possible. The only reasonable solutions I can think of require not compromising on certain things.

The main problem is that transwomen want to be seen and treated as women, no questions asked, no distinctions made, full stop. There's no good way to compromise on that. Either a transwoman can walk into a women's locker room the same way a woman can, or not. Any compromise on that point fails to meet the requirements of the trans community. There's not really any workable half-measure there.

Either you treat transwomen as women, or you treat them as other than women. If your compromise doesn't treat them as women, then it's just a solution that's convenient for you because it dismisses the heart of what the trans community is asking for. That's not a compromise.
 
Belz... said:
… If we're asking trans women (actual trans women, that is) …
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This seems to bring us full circle.

On one side we have trans women who have been passing as women (with varying degrees of success or not) for many years. On the other we have people who are biologically, physiologically and behaviourally entirely male in every respect excepting their claim to feel female.

Does the line between "trans women" and "actual trans women" fall somewhere between these groups?

I ask because an awful lot of time and effort has been expended in this thread in arguing over whether women's objection to the latter group entering women only places is actually a general hostility to the former group. I simply don't know whether the sticking point for some is that no line may be drawn as a matter of principle.
 
GlennB said:
Because many (most?) women have a lifetime's experience of suffering sexual harassment from men - harassment of various grades - and the extreme case of being forced to undress in front of biological men is asking too much?
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Sounds like we should treat women differently, then?

Meanwhile, how would you even know you're being ogled by a gay man
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Same way women know they're being ogled by a straight one.
 
Meadmaker said:
Looking ahead in that paper by Serano I am reading, I think this phrase will be the problematic one. I am not certain of that, but I think finding a way to identify, or even define, "actual transwomen" will prove problematic.
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Getting a diagnostic of gender dysphoria would be a good start.
 
theprestige said:
I don't think a reasonable compromise is possible. The only reasonable solutions I can think of require not compromising on certain things.

The main problem is that transwomen want to be seen and treated as women, no questions asked, no distinctions made, full stop. There's no good way to compromise on that. Either a transwoman can walk into a women's locker room the same way a woman can, or not. Any compromise on that point fails to meet the requirements of the trans community. There's not really any workable half-measure there.

Either you treat transwomen as women, or you treat them as other than women. If your compromise doesn't treat them as women, then it's just a solution that's convenient for you because it dismisses the heart of what the trans community is asking for. That's not a compromise.
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I think you're right, yet the compromise might lie in recognising that "transwoman" is not one thing.
 
Here's a third option: facilities for males, facilities for females, facilities for people who don't care what anyone else is. When I'm in a bathroom I'm there for a reason and no possible arrangement of DNA and genitals on someone else's body is going to help or hinder my purpose. There can be a triple-sexed alien in there but unless it can teleport urine out of bladders it won't make a shake of difference to me.
 
Meadmaker said:
Looking at the paper, and the critique, and a couple of references from it, it does appear that the significance of brain scan findings may be overstated by some publications. In other words, the scientific papers report, "Study Suggests Statistically Significant Variation in Brain Activity Between Males and Females", and the popular press rendering of that is, "Scientists Prove Men and Women Have Different Brains!"
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Well, yes, the jump from "Study Suggests" to "Scientists Prove" is indeed a problem.

Fwiw, I have my own hypothesis about the primary difference between "male brains" and "female brains". The hypothesis is this: The brains really are the same. But, testosterone affects the brain is subtle ways. Same brain, different mix of hormones affecting the brain.
 
You can't "compromise" with a position that is solely defined as disagreeing that the distinction exists.

By definition Trans-people are NOT going to accept some compromise that leaves them as some special sub-category of their "self identified" gender. If they could this wouldn't be a discussion.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Here's a third option: facilities for males, facilities for females, facilities for people who don't care what anyone else is. When I'm in a bathroom I'm there for a reason and no possible arrangement of DNA and genitals on someone else's body is going to help or hinder my purpose. There can be a triple-sexed alien in there but unless it can teleport urine out of bladders it won't make a shake of difference to me.
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What do you do with trans people who care what the others around them are?
 
Belz... said:
What do you do with trans people who care what the others around them are?
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I don't really care much about people who want their own personal situation considered but refuse to extend the same allowance to others. Like gay racists: by virtue of their own situation they ought to know better.
 
TragicMonkey said:
Here's a third option: facilities for males, facilities for females, facilities for people who don't care what anyone else is. When I'm in a bathroom I'm there for a reason and no possible arrangement of DNA and genitals on someone else's body is going to help or hinder my purpose. There can be a triple-sexed alien in there but unless it can teleport urine out of bladders it won't make a shake of difference to me.
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That's exactly the kind of option that I don't think can work. Transwomen want to use the facilities for people who do care what anyone else is. Specifically, they want the people who care whether they're women to agree that they're women and treat them accordingly.

Facilities for people who don't count as women to those who care about it, explicitly fail that requirement. There's no real compromise there. Similarly, an open category in professional sports doesn't satisfy those who wish to compete as women.
 
Belz... said:
Sounds like we should treat women differently, then?
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Yes, as women take far more crap in terms of sexual harassment than vice-versa.

Belz... said:
Same way women know they're being ogled by a straight one.
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A woman being ogled by a straight man is being ogled by a man. A man being ogled by a gay guy is being ogled by a man. Nothing like the same as far as harassment or threat is concerned.
 
So yet again we're back at defining a thousand different sub-categories when the only one that matters is "Straight Cis Men" and "Literally Everybody Else."

More and more I'm beginning to think that's what we're building to. Kind of like how every black, Asian, Hispanic, and Native American is a "Person of Color" just via not being white.
 
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