Split Thread David Gilroy: murder conviction goes to Scottish Review Commission

[Rolfe]

I dont think he went off road near the RABT, he just went there (only in the afternoon not in the evening) to misdirect the police into thinking that the RABT area is the disposal site and to deflect attention from elsewhere.

But. The main reason the police seem to have for believing he was in the Arrochar Alps at all is the analysis of the soil and vegetation on his car. So it's a bit illogical to say he was there, but didn't go off-road. The thing we're trying to explain is something that would only have happened if he had gone off-road.

The police must have decided that the witness sightings were accurate enough to justify spending so much time and money searching the RABT area.

Not buying it. The police aren't infallible and no compelling reason for concentrating on that location has ever been published. It's a truly weird thing they're saying Gilroy has done, but there has never been an article taking that line. Hey look at this really bizarre drive he did but we know for sure he did that because x. I still think there's tunnel vision going on here.

A witness could have photographic evidence of him at the RABT or he could have interacted with someone (possibly at the snack van if it was parked at the RABT that day) or he acted strangely enough to draw attention to himself.

If he was spotted in the RABT area it would be more than likely it was when he was parked up and not whilst he was driving.

With the greatest respect, this isn't logical. If there was photographic evidence of him at the Rest and Be Thankful, that would have been News. If there was a specific interaction with someone which they were pretty sure identified Gilroy as being there, that would have been News. (And why would they even bother searching Glen Orchy or Glen Shira?)[/quote]

Why park in area known to be frequented with lots of tourists if he is trying to stay off the radar?

If the disposal site was in the RABT area he would not have wanted to get seen. He would have quickly got to the disposal site, dumped everything and got back to Inveraray without stopping as this means less chance of getting spotted and uses less of the extra time he had.[/quote]


Now this bit I think makes sense. The stories about a silver car being seen multiple times in multiple places in the Arrochar Alps suggest this was someone who didn't mind being seen and wasn't trying to hide. Gilroy would have been trying to remain useen while he was hiding the body and he also didn't have time to be in multiple places around that area. I don't think the silver car (or cars, there may have been more than one) was him.


Also bear in mind that the police thought he'd been to the Arrochar Alps on both the outward and return journeys and that the stories about the silver car also cover the evening time window. Why believe the police are right about the afternoon sightings but wrong about the evening ones?

So I think he went off road somewhere near to Glen Orchy/Glen Lochy, dumped everything, went to the RABT area for misdirection, went to Lochgilphead school, returned to the Glen Orchy/Glen Orchy area and completed the disposal.

The RABT detour does reduce his disposal time on the outward journey by about an hour but he knew he was going back to the Glen Orchy/Glen Lochy area on the way back and he allocated an hour and a half to complete the disposal there.

The soil type in the RABT area matched the soil on his car which would be an unfortunate (but possible) coincidence for the police to have spent all that time and money on the search in the RABT area thinking the soil was collected in the RABT area when the same soil type was collected elsewhere.

There isn't time. The outward time window is only an hour and 51 minutes. If you chop an hour off of that for a misdirection detour he's left with too short a time to get to a disposal site in Glen Orchy or thereabouts. Bear in mind the identification of a suitable spot isn't going to be instantaneous, he has to get his car off the road, he has to change into his gardening clothes or whatever, he has to get a 70 kg body out of the car and into a place of concealment, then he has to get changed back again and make himself respectable to be seen in Lochgilphead. He doesn't have a spare hour to be detouring off on a misdirection where maybe nobody will remember seeing him, and he didn't even turn his phone on to make sure he was traced there.

And the theory that the soil and vegetation on his car, which seems to be the main reason the police think he was in the Arrochar Alps, actually came from somewhere else but by some quirky coincidence actually matched the place where he wanted the police to think he'd been - no, not buying it.

The police must have had some doubts about the RABT area as a disposal site as they checked elsewhere along his route from Tyndrum to Inveraray but the amount of time and money the police spent searching the RABT area indicates to me the police had some solid evidence from witnesses that he was actually in the RABT area at some point that day.

He could have been playing mind games with the police by purposely getting seen at the RABT area then denying that he went there.

Definitely not buying it. There has been a trial. Nothing is being concealed in case it jeopardises the case. Gilroy has been in jail for the past six years. All the evidence would have come out at the trial, and there has been no report of any solid evidence placing him anywhere near the Rest and Be Thankful apart from the soil analysis thing.

He gave the police the Ardlui phone clue to enable the police to work out his route from Inveraray to Ardlui and therefore they could work out that he spent an hour and 32 minutes more than necessary driving from Inveraray to Ardlui. He would know the police would realise that he had enough time to go to the RABT area and double back to the junction of the A83/A819 from the RABT. (rather than continue on the A83 to Tarbet.)

He would then hope the police would accuse him of being in the RABT area and he could (overly) insist he was not, prompting the police to think he was actually there and in addition to the witness sightings/photographs/interactions and the soil types matching the police then assumed the RABT area was the disposal site.

Possibly some over thinking being done in this post but it makes some sense to me.

Doesn't make any sense to me. I simply don't believe that he drove a substantial detour talking at least an hour (two and a quarter hours if according to the police theory) just in the vague hope that someone would remember seeing him, while at the same time hoping to hell nobody would see him when he was at the real disposal site. I don't think he would have done anything that crazy in the first place but if he did he would have turned his phone on so he wouldn't have to take a chance on being seen and remembered.

 

[Rolfe]

"Two disposal areas just double the chance something is going to be found."

Assuming there is one disposal site for the body and everything else in the boot then he has to decide whether to -

A - dump everything in his boot on the way to Inveraray.

B - dump the body on the way to Inveraray and keep everything else in the boot until he has finished at Lochgilphead school and then return to the same disposal site in the evening to dump everything else.

C - keep everything in the boot and arrive at Lochgilphead school with it all.

In scenario A I dont think he could have resisted returning to the disposal site in the evening to check everything was how he left it in the afternoon.

In scenario B he has to return to the same disposal site to get rid of everything else in the evening but he is taking a big risk by not clearing everything from his car boot.

Can you imagine if Lochgilphead police turned up at Lochgilphead school and asked to see in his car boot and found a spade and muddied overalls.(or even a dead body)

I think he opted for A as if the police did turn up at Lochgilphead school he would have been able to open his car boot and say "I told you officer - theres nothing in there"....

Given that he lost nearly two hours on the outward journey then yes, I think option A is it. I don't think he would have spent all that time off the radar and not got rid of the body.

But we should remember that he didn't realise at the time just how hot the pursuit actually was. Suzanne was simply someone who hadn't turned up for work on Tuesday, the day after a bank holiday. Not the most surprising behaviour. She hadn't turned up again on Wednesday, but just how big a concern was this? She was an adult woman of normal mental capacity and not vulnerable in any way. It was very likely that the police wouldn't take this seriously until she'd been missing for at least a couple of days.

If it hadn't been for her parents becoming very concerned and getting on the police's case about her disappearance, probably nothing much would have happened on the Wednesday either. But the concerned parents, the cat left home alone and so on caused the police to get involved earlier than would normally have been the case.

So I don't think there was much danger of an actual physical policeman showing up at the school to quiz him while he was at Lochgilphead. The Edinburgh police only regarded Gilroy as a witness at this point and they just wanted to talk to him about when he last saw Suzanne (as he said he'd seen her on the Monday).

He might actually have been better off if he had driven straight to Lochgilphead, got there about half past two, done his inspecting at a normal time of day, and set off back again maybe 3.30. He would then have had the maximum time in one block to do what he had to do, cut down on the driving in and out of the disposal location (a risky stage of the exercise and he seems to have done it twice), and been able to concoct some sort of an explanation about stopping to eat his sandwiches and maybe dozing off for a bit.

But either he didn't think of that or he thought he could do the whole thing on the way out. Then either it all took longer than he expected and he realised he was going to have to go back because he couldn't delay his appearance at the school any longer, or he thought he was done but he still had incriminating material in the car. Then after the conversation with the police and the request to go straight to Corstorphine he realised he had to go back and dispose of the rest of the stuff because he wasn't going to get the opportunity to do that once he was back in Edinburgh.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

Information from the indictment

"Gilroy is accused of travelling to an area near Glen Croe Forest, Argyll, or elsewhere in Argyll, after telling colleagues he was travelling to Lochgilpead High School."

The extra 1 hour and 51 minutes he had between Tyndrum and Inveraray would be reduced by at least an hour just driving there and back leaving about 50 minutes for disposal.

"Gilroy allegedly went to an area near to Ben Donich, Argyll, on May 5 when he had been asked to come immediately to Corstorphine police station."

The extra 1 hour and 32 minutes he had between Inveraray and Tyndrum would be reduced by at least an hour just driving there and back leaving about 30 minutes for disposal.

Why go to two different areas (although Glen Croe and Ben Donich are in the same vicinity) when the police assumed that he drove to the area for disposal.

If the disposal site was in Glen Croe he would have went there on both occasions and if the disposal site was near Ben Donich he would have went there on both occasions.

The police are assuming that he either

A - went to the tracks in Glen Croe on a reccy in the afternoon and did not find it was a suitable disposal area, then he went to Lochgilphead with everything still in the car boot. Then he returned to the area in the evening and decided that he would try the tracks near Ben Donich as these led to a more suitable disposal site (effectively wasting over an hour just driving about the Glen Croe area in the afternoon.) He also still has everything in the boot when he gets to Lochgilphead.

B - went to the tracks in Glen Croe and disposed of the body in the afternoon, then he went to Lochgilphead with everything else still in the car boot. Then he returned to the area in the evening and rather than go back to the body disposal site in Glen Croe he decided that he would try the tracks to get access to an area near Ben Donich to dump everything else - creating two dump sites. He also still has some incriminating evidence in the boot when he gets to Lochgilphead and wastes an hour each time driving on these journeys.

He could have looked at an OS map and decided beforehand where he was going and saved a lot of time and effort.

If the police do not have any tourist photographs of him in the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area and only have a witness statement which refers to a sliver car being seen then deciding to thoroughly search Glen Croe/Ben Donich was a (very expensive and time consuming) shot in the dark.

In fact it hindered the investigation by aiming the police focus on the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area to the detriment of any other area. (lots of time and money spent on searches in the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area but cursory searches made elsewhere)

I have been attempting to join the dots and work out why the police used so many resources searching the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area but every route he took that day (and by switching his phone off and on at certain points) was designed to cause confusion.

I agree that if he went to the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area twice he wastes the majority of both of the extra time periods he had for disposal just driving about, if he went to the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area once then he has wasted the majority of one of the extra time periods he had for disposal with no guarantee that by going to the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area he would be spotted therefore making an attempted misdirection pointless.

The only way that it all fits into place is if there were any witnesses they were mistaken, there were no photographs, the soil found on his car is common to the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area and the actual disposal site (the soil found on his car is found in the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area and the Glen Orchy/Glen Lochy area so the police could have assumed he collected this soil at Glen Croe/Ben Donich but if he was not there he must have collected the same type of soil in the Glen Orchy/Glen Lochy area or another area which has the same soil types) and the lead police investigators instinct was wrong and Gilroy did not go to the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area at all that day. All of these are possible.

The police fell for it and concentrated on one area - if only the police had appealed for witnesses specifically in the Glen Lochy/Glen Orchy areas then she may have been found by now.

Moving back to the Glen Orchy area near Allt Broighleachan.

Found a video which shows someone driving a car over the bridge (then reversing back)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa7tg9FVT5E

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

These images show tracks that Gilroy could have accessed that day (the dates have been changed in the images to show the landscape as it would look in May 2010 or as near to then as possible)

From the junction of the A85/B8074 going east on the A85 towards the junction of the A85/A82

1 - Another track found here (tracks 1 and 3 connect to each other) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...wx1kwv0g!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

2 -https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...JtZiVEcA!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

3 - Another track found here (tracks 3 and 1 connect to each other) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4..._9gpIoTw!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

4 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...0jY-lwWg!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

5 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...nbIqunkg!2e0!5s20100301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

6 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...1QnhNa6Q!2e0!5s20100301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

From the junction of the A85/A82 going north on the A82 towards the junction of the A82/B8074

7 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...2Igkd4NQ!2e0!5s20090601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

From the junction of the A82/B8074 going south towards the junctiion of the B8074/A85

8 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...n7JxDyFQ!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

9 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...4!1s6OFC_TXyzt9bRgzzNj-KwQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

All the tracks have the correct Peaty Podzols/Strichen soil (or lead to Peaty Podzols/Strichen soil as in image 1 and 8) and he wastes a minimal amount of his extra time periods getting to and from these tracks. (nowhere near an hour like the police believe)

On OS Explorer paper map number 377 you can see 8 of the tracks (cannot see track 2 which must be a relatively new track and it would not have been there in May 2010)

 

[Rolfe]

Information from the indictment

"Gilroy is accused of travelling to an area near Glen Croe Forest, Argyll, or elsewhere in Argyll, after telling colleagues he was travelling to Lochgilpead High School."

The extra 1 hour and 51 minutes he had between Tyndrum and Inveraray would be reduced by at least an hour just driving there and back leaving about 50 minutes for disposal.

"Gilroy allegedly went to an area near to Ben Donich, Argyll, on May 5 when he had been asked to come immediately to Corstorphine police station."

The extra 1 hour and 32 minutes he had between Inveraray and Tyndrum would be reduced by at least an hour just driving there and back leaving about 30 minutes for disposal.

Why go to two different areas (although Glen Croe and Ben Donich are in the same vicinity) when the police assumed that he drove to the area for disposal.

If the disposal site was in Glen Croe he would have went there on both occasions and if the disposal site was near Ben Donich he would have went there on both occasions.

The police are assuming that he either

A - went to the tracks in Glen Croe on a reccy in the afternoon and did not find it was a suitable disposal area, then he went to Lochgilphead with everything still in the car boot. Then he returned to the area in the evening and decided that he would try the tracks near Ben Donich as these led to a more suitable disposal site (effectively wasting over an hour just driving about the Glen Croe area in the afternoon.) He also still has everything in the boot when he gets to Lochgilphead.

B - went to the tracks in Glen Croe and disposed of the body in the afternoon, then he went to Lochgilphead with everything else still in the car boot. Then he returned to the area in the evening and rather than go back to the body disposal site in Glen Croe he decided that he would try the tracks to get access to an area near Ben Donich to dump everything else - creating two dump sites. He also still has some incriminating evidence in the boot when he gets to Lochgilphead and wastes an hour each time driving on these journeys.

He could have looked at an OS map and decided beforehand where he was going and saved a lot of time and effort.

My interpretation of this lot has always been that the police think he probably went to the same place both times but since they don't know exactly where that was they can't be specific. So I think for the indictment they went by sightings of this silver car, which I infer was said to be in Glen Croe in the afternoon and near Ben Donich in the evening. I don't think there are two discrete dump sites - as you say the two areas are almost the same thing, Glen Croe is bounded on the west by Ben Donich.

We don't know why he went back on the return journey but my guess is that either he had to leave the job unfinished due to the necessity of getting to the school no later than he did, or he realised when speaking to the police that he had to get rid of everything before reporting to Corstorphine and decided to go back in the evening to get rid of whatever was still in his car - overalls, gardening clothes, blankets, whatever.

I merely contend that wherever he went it was neither to Glen Croe nor to Ben Donich.

If the police do not have any tourist photographs of him in the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area and only have a witness statement which refers to a sliver car being seen then deciding to thoroughly search Glen Croe/Ben Donich was a (very expensive and time consuming) shot in the dark.

In fact it hindered the investigation by aiming the police focus on the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area to the detriment of any other area. (lots of time and money spent on searches in the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area but cursory searches made elsewhere)

I have been attempting to join the dots and work out why the police used so many resources searching the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area but every route he took that day (and by switching his phone off and on at certain points) was designed to cause confusion.

I agree that if he went to the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area twice he wastes the majority of both of the extra time periods he had for disposal just driving about, if he went to the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area once then he has wasted the majority of one of the extra time periods he had for disposal with no guarantee that by going to the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area he would be spotted therefore making an attempted misdirection pointless.

The only way that it all fits into place is if there were any witnesses they were mistaken, there were no photographs, the soil found on his car is common to the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area and the actual disposal site (the soil found on his car is found in the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area and the Glen Orchy/Glen Lochy area so the police could have assumed he collected this soil at Glen Croe/Ben Donich but if he was not there he must have collected the same type of soil in the Glen Orchy/Glen Lochy area or another area which has the same soil types) and the lead police investigators instinct was wrong and Gilroy did not go to the Glen Croe/Ben Donich area at all that day. All of these are possible.

The police fell for it and concentrated on one area - if only the police had appealed for witnesses specifically in the Glen Lochy/Glen Orchy areas then she may have been found by now.

I agree. No irrefutable evidence that Gilroy was seen in the Rest and Be Thankful area has ever been published. I'm sure if that existed it would have been in the press somewhere (and they wouldn't have bothered searching either Glen Orchy or Glen Shira). I think the police convinced themselves they were on to something in the Arrochar Alps and doubled down on it. I think they were mistaken because the amount of driving this scenario entails is simply ludicrous, and the fact that they haven't found the body where they were looking, while not conclusive because the terrain is wild, rather supports this interpretation.

There are three things Gilroy is said to have done that day.

1. Driven the A85 through Tyndrum
2. Driven the A82 through Glen Croe
3. Concealed Suzanne's body

My interpretation of the timings involved is that while any two of these are possible, all three are not. The only thing we know with 100% certainty that he did is drive the A85 through Tyndrum. So he either concealed Suzanne's body somewhere near that route and didn't go into the Arrochar Alps, or he did go into the Arrochar Alps but he did not conceal Suzanne's body that day (i.e. he got rid of the body the previous night).

My money is on the former but I don't discount the latter.

Moving back to the Glen Orchy area near Allt Broighleachan.

Found a video which shows someone driving a car over the bridge (then reversing back)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pa7tg9FVT5E

That is a very weird thing to do. First, the bridge isn't that bad, why get cold feet and reverse out? Especially when it's obvious there's a turning place just on the other side. There's a actually a small building on the left there, I think probably a garage or a store for maintenance equipment, it's not really big enough for a house and there's no sign of a garden. And second, given that you did that, why on earth upload the footage to YouTube?

 

[Rolfe]

These images show tracks that Gilroy could have accessed that day (the dates have been changed in the images to show the landscape as it would look in May 2010 or as near to then as possible)

From the junction of the A85/B8074 going east on the A85 towards the junction of the A85/A82

1 - Another track found here (tracks 1 and 3 connect to each other) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...wx1kwv0g!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

2 -https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...JtZiVEcA!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

3 - Another track found here (tracks 3 and 1 connect to each other) https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4..._9gpIoTw!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

4 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...0jY-lwWg!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

5 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...nbIqunkg!2e0!5s20100301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

6 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...1QnhNa6Q!2e0!5s20100301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

From the junction of the A85/A82 going north on the A82 towards the junction of the A82/B8074

7 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...2Igkd4NQ!2e0!5s20090601T000000!7i13312!8i6656

From the junction of the A82/B8074 going south towards the junctiion of the B8074/A85

8 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...n7JxDyFQ!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

9 - https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...4!1s6OFC_TXyzt9bRgzzNj-KwQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

All the tracks have the correct Peaty Podzols/Strichen soil (or lead to Peaty Podzols/Strichen soil as in image 1 and 8) and he wastes a minimal amount of his extra time periods getting to and from these tracks. (nowhere near an hour like the police believe)

On OS Explorer paper map number 377 you can see 8 of the tracks (cannot see track 2 which must be a relatively new track and it would not have been there in May 2010)

I actually did all that a couple of weeks ago and pasted screen captures of all these track entrances into my pdf discussion document. I didn't get it sufficiently finished to upload it at the time though and intend to go back to it.

Your track 2 is marked on the current version of the 1:25,000 OS map but not on the 1:50,000 version. The March 2009 Streetview shows that it isn't there but the entrance is and there's a vehicle parked there. It looks as if the track construction is beginning. It's certainly there in April 2011. So it could have been there in May 2010.

It seems that your tracks 1 and 3, which are the ends of the old Wade's road where it parallels the A85 there and joins up with it in places, have becomes disused and allowed to revert to nature since that new track was built. However as the Streetview images you link to show, they were probably still passable in May 2010.

I have a part-made map of the A85 between Tyndrum and Inverlochy showing the possible tracks these entrances lead to, and as you say they're all the right soil type. There is quite a lot of activity visible in that general area, new tracks and felling and so on, but I think much of it is newer than 2010. The two sections of the Wade's road where it parallels the modern road are definite possibilities.

My main problem with these tracks is visibility. The A85 is a busy road and he risks being seen turning into any of these tracks. The old tracks that aren't gated are pretty rough and a city car seen driving into one of these might well be noticed as incongruous by a passing driver even if it didn't take very long. The newer tracks might excite less remark, but they're mostly gated and if he has to stop in full view of the main road and deal with the gate - even if it turns out not to be locked - that's a significantly longer time for someone to notice.

They're also private forestry. Although he could easily have noticed the track entrances on the way past on previous journeys, he's very unlikely to have been into the forest on any of these tracks. Without an OS map he's going in blind. Does the track just peter out? Does it become impassable? Does it suddenly go up a 45-degree slope? Does it run straight into someone's farmyard?

This is where I think the Glen Orchy tracks score. The B8074 is a much quieter road and he has a far better chance of driving off it without someone coming past and seeing him. In particular the Allt Broighleachan track is an entrance you might not think anything about seeing a city car turn into. Also it's a publicly-accessible area and it's possible Gilroy might have had some prior knowledge of what lay beyond the bridge.

There are another couple of possibilities west of Inverlochy too - one east of Dalmally and the other the unclassified road that leads from Dalmally to the Duncan McIntyre monument. The main problem with these may be the soil type if only we knew what the critical parameters on the soil analysis actually were.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

Looking around the soil map near Glen Croe/Ben Donich for tracks which lead off the A83/B828/B839 the soil types are

From the junction of the A83/B828 along the A83 to Ardgartan the soil is Peaty Podzols/Strichen on both sides of the A83.

Drive over the bridge at Ardgartan Visitor Centre and the soil is initially Peaty Podzols/Strichen but turn right and one track leads to Brown Soils/Strichen.

Turn left and drive through Mineral Podzols/Corby but not for long as the soil changes to Brown Soils/Strichen.

Every track around the coastline of Loch Long has Peaty Podzols/Strichen or Brown Soils/Strichen except for the area near Corran Lochan where the soil is Peaty Gleys/Strichen.

Every track around the coastline of Loch Goil has Peaty Podzols/Strichen or Brown Soils/Strichen except for one track which has a combination of Peaty Podzols/Strichen and Brown Soils/Strichen and Peaty Gleys/Strichen.

On the whole of the B828 the soil is Peaty Podzols/Strichen.

On the B839 the majority of the soil is is Peaty Podzols/Strichen except for one section which is Brown soils/Strichen (although there are no tracks going off road in the Brown soils/Strichen section of the B839) and one section of Mineral Podzols/Corby south of the B839/B828 junction on the way to Lochgoilhead.

If he drove in the Glen Croe and Ben Donich and Hells Glen (B839) areas his car picked up Peaty Podzols/Strichen.

If he drove through Ardgartan his car picked up a combination of Peaty Podzols/Strichen and/or Brown Soils/Strichen. (with a chance of picking up Mineral Podzols/Corby and/or Peaty Gleys/Strichen)

If he drove on the coastline of Loch Goil his car picked up a combination of Peaty Podzols/Strichen and/or Brown Soils/Strichen. (with a chance of picking up Peaty Gleys/Strichen)

The police searched Glen Shira up to Rob Roys House and the tracks there contain the soil types Mineral Podzols/Corby, Brown Soils/Foudland, Peaty Gleys/Foudland, Peaty Gleys/Strichen and Mineral Gleys/Foudland.

The police searched all along the B8074 and the tracks there contain the soil types Peaty Podzols/Strichen, Peaty Gleys/Foudland, Mineral Podzols/Strichen and Peaty Podzols/Arkaig.

There is no soil with both the Generalised Soil Type and its Soil Association common to all three areas but there are two Generalised Soil types common to all three areas - Mineral Podzols and Peaty Gleys.

Mineral Podzols are found after the bridge at Allt Broighleachan and in Glen Shira and near Ardgartan and south of the B839/B828 junction on the way to Lochgoilhead.

Peaty Gleys are found after the gate on the B8074 near Achnafalnich (pass through Peaty Podzols first) and in Glen Shira and near Corran Lochan (past Ardgartan) and on a track near the coastline of Loch Goil.

Mineral Podzols point to the tracks after the bridge at Allt Broighleachan.

Peaty Gleys point to the tracks past the gate near Achnafalnich.

The majority of the soil around the area of Glen Croe/Ben Donich is Peaty Podzols which points to the tracks just off the A85 between the junctions of the A85/B8074 and A85/A82.

In fact if you go on the tracks on the old Wade's road from here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4...wx1kwv0g!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

to here

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@56.4..._9gpIoTw!2e0!5s20090301T000000!7i13312!8i6656

you have hit the soil jackpot (Mineral Podzols then Peaty Gleys then Peaty Podzols)

 

[Rolfe]

I wish we knew what the soil jackpot actually was though. They searched Glen Shira which doesn't have any of the sort of soil that's commonest in the Arrochar Alps.

Also, bear in mind that a car doesn't pick up soil just driving on a road. He got that soil and vegetation on his car in one specific place, a place were he drove off-road and almost certainly off-track too. My guess is that he ran the car into a concealed place, possibly where it was screened by trees, both to conceal it should anyone happen past while he was busy with the body and also to get the body as far as possible from the road before he had to start carrying or (more probably) dragging it.

I know what you mean about the old Wade's road. It seems to have the right sort of soil and it's right beside his core route. I just have reservations about whether he would want to risk being seen by passing motorists driving into a forest track. The A85 carries a lot of passing motorists. Also, I'm not sure where all the extra fuel went in that case. OK, I don't believe he used as much extra fuel as the police think he did (unless he really flogged the engine for quite a while), but I think we would expect some driving off his core route to use up some extra.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

These areas contain Mineral Podzols.

1 - Turn left after the bridge at Ardgartan Visitor Centre near Ardgartan.
2 - South of the B839/B828 junction on the way to Lochgoilhead.
3 - Glen Shira.

The tracks after the bridge at Allt Broighleachan also contain Mineral Podzols leading into Peaty Podzols.

Although the police searched along the B8074 it is not known if they searched beyond the bridge at Allt Broighleachan, it seems an obvious place to search but if the police were so fixated on the RABT/Glen Croe/Ben Donich areas they may not have looked too closely.

From the appeal https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=fbc08aa6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

"His car had used more petrol* than might have been expected. When examined, his car had 4 fractures to 3 suspension coils; it being unusual to find even one fracture in a suspension coil of a car subject to ordinary road use. The plastic under-tray had been scraped and vegetation was stuck to the underside. It had clearly been driven off road. The inference to be drawn from that, which the jury were asked to make, was that the deceased* had disposed of the body somewhere off the road between Tyndrum and Inveraray. However, no body has ever been found."

* Should be diesel
* Should be appellant

Driving over the bridge at at Allt Broighleachan could cause the damage to his cars suspension coils and the scrapes to the plastic under-tray.

His car could have collected Mineral Podzols and/or Peaty Podzols whilst driving on the tracks after the bridge.

These are screen shots of his cars MOT history.











On 20 February 2008 (mot page 5) his car failed its MOT because "a rear shock absorber has a serious fluid leak"

On 21 February 2008 his car passed its MOT and the rear shock absorber must have been replaced.

If the other 3 shock absorbers were not replaced then they would not absorb any impacts as effectively as the newly replaced shock absorber.

If these 3 shock absorbers were not absorbing impacts effectively then the suspension coils may fracture.

Driving too fast over the bridge at Allt Broighleachan could have caused the coil fractures and the scrapes to the plastic under-tray.

If his car was driven on the tracks after the bridge then this could have contributed to the coil fractures and vegetation would get stuck to the underside of his car.

Driving from the bridge at Allt Broighleachan to Lochgilphead school then back to Edinburgh with 3 broken suspension coils would use more fuel than it would with the suspension coils intact so this could account for the some of the 124 miles of extra fuel used "his car used more petrol (diesel) than might have been expected."

Link to images of the track after the bridge at Allt Broighleachan

http://www.geograph.org.uk/near/NN23513250

 

[Rolfe]

Do you think broken suspension affects fuel consumption? I wondered about that but I couldn't find anything about it online.

What I don't understand about the soil (and vegetation) is that they seem to believe the composition is specific to the Arrochar Alps, despite the soil map showing similar soil types in the Ben Lui range, Glen Lochy, Glen Orchy and even Rannoch Moor. And yet, when we look at the map showing where the searches took place, these took in Glen Shira and the Ardgartan Forest, neither of which match the main area of the Arrochar Alps.

The map showing where they searched seems reasonably detailed and shows forext tracks being searched north of Lochgoilhead and in Glen Croe. And yet the tracks leading up into the forest in Hell's Glen aren't marked as searched and neither is the Allt Broighleachan track. I could imagine that the Hell's Glen tracks might be ruled out as they're gated and perhaps they could be sure Gilroy couldn't have passed the gates, but the bridge at the Allt Broighleachan is wide open and looks like a no-brainer as a possibility. So why not?

A lot of the searching seems to have been along the side of the public roads, in particular the B838, B828 and of course the B8074. I don't really follow that either, because if he didn't really leave the public road then how did his car get so damaged and where did it pick up the soil and vegetation? I agree the Allt Broighleachan track looks like a good place to bork your suspension and if he ran the car off the track to offload the body he'd pick up some landscape in the process. Leaving aside the soil type because I don't wholly understand that, the only downside to that track is the question of whether it's quiet enough for him to have got in and out again without being seen, probably twice.


By the way, I discovered a friend of mine was interested in the case from way back and actually has a copy of the trial transcript, if he can find it. Hopefully he'll find it and that might indicate why the cops were so obsessed with the Rest and Be Thankful. Or not, on the other hand, if it's anything like the Lockerbie transcript, which is far more notable for what it doesn't say than what it does say.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/suzan...-gilroy-guilt-betrayed-by-own-hands-1-2177108

(As of today the above webpage is now unavailable)

"Mr Flannigan said Gilroy made a “couple of attempts to take us away from Rest and Be Thankful”, which raised suspicion. “He was signposting that there was something suspicious about that part of the journey,” he added."

As we know Gilroy switched his phone on just after he passed Inveraray at 15.51 (on the way to Lochgilphead) and he switched his phone off just before he passed Inveraray at 18.58 (on the way from Lochgilphead)

Gilroy could choose which of the routes he could signpost as being suspicious, either the A83 between Inveraray and Ardgartan or the A819/A85 between Inveraray and Tyndrum.

A - If the disposal site is between Inveraray and Ardgartan then he could have signposted that that there was something suspicious on the route between Inveraray and Tyndrum.

B - If the disposal site is between Inveraray and Ardgartan then he could have signposted that that there was something suspicious on the route between Inveraray and Ardgartan.

C - If the disposal site is between Inveraray and Tyndrum then he could have signposted that that there was something suspicious on the route between Inveraray and Ardgartan.

D - If the disposal site is between Inveraray and Tyndrum then he could have signposted that that there was something suspicious on the route between Inveraray and Tyndrum.

Gilroy did not opt for A or D, the police opted for B but that has not worked out so that only leaves C.

30 searches of different areas in Argyll indicates that the police did not have any concrete evidence placing Gilroy in the RABT area.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/family-stand-by-gilroy-as-colleagues-tell-of-revulsion-1-2177405

"The massive murder inquiry saw police speak to 1470 potential witnesses and take 1164 statements. Officers gathered 2325 productions to use in evidence and obtained CCTV footage from 250 separate locations while 30 different areas in Argyll were subject to coordinated searches."

I think the forest beyond the Achnafalnich track warrants a search, I will go and have a look in springtime when the weather is better.

 

[Rolfe]

I got the web page OK. I have to say I think Mr Flannigan is reading too much into his perception that Gilroy was trying to lead the conversation away from the Rest and Be Thankful. He's said to be a controlling individual and to be a superb problem-solver. I think he's devious and cunning. I think it's entirely possible the Rest and Be Thankful was where he hoped they would search and that's the reason for him answering evasively when that area was mentioned.

If he was hoping the cops might jump the wrong way and go for the Rest and Be Thankful he had really bad luck that the Tyndrum camera caught him. That they continued to think the Rest and Be Thankful was the disposal site after finding that camera evidence is baffling to me. It's as if Flannigan latched on to the Rest and Be Thankful before the camera evidence was discovered and then couldn't let go.

But there simply isn't time, and the implied route, especially on the return journey, is insane. I could get behind Glen Shira I suppose, but the Rest and Be Thankful itself, Ben Donich, Lochgoilhead and Hell's Glen don't make a lick of sense. And as for the Ardgartan forest, give me a freaking break.

I'm also thinking of going walking up there when the spring weather sets in. I retired from work today so I'll have more time for that sort of expedition and the exercise would do me good.

 

[Reporter1]

Hello -
Can I first off say that this is one of the most thorough and well thought through threads I think I’ve ever immersed myself in - the level of detail in the last few pages and the reasoning behind it is complex, but after reading several times, makes a lot of sense.
I’m an investigative reporter - looking at elements of this case and the wider context of it. I hope you don’t mind my hijacking the thread, but I’m interested to know why this case has captured peoples attention here. And after several years and many many posts since the thread began, whether any opinions have changed, or questions been raised?
I’d be pleased to connect with people via this thread who recall the events or who have dedicated their own time to researching them. And I’d welcome any comments or thoughts of an investigation into these events.
Thanks all, and happy new year.

 

[Rolfe]

Hi, Reporter, welcome to the forum. I have emailed you as you requested and I hope to hear from you.

I originally became interested because I wondered whether the conviction was really safe given the lack of forensic evidence linking Gilroy to the murder. However when I read up on the evidence I decided if I'd been on the jury I'd have voted guilty too. The circumstantial case is extremely strong.

That then morphed into curiosity about where he concealed the body. I know these roads a bit, and it's an interesting puzzle. Not the least puzzling part being why the police are so hung up on the Rest and Be Thankful when that doesn't make a blind bit of sense to me in the context of the route we know he drove.

Happy New Year to you too.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

Timeline before next trip

Monday 3rd May 2010 IML Thistle Street Edinburgh - closed.

Tuesday 4th May 2010.

08.00 Gilroy gets dropped off at Orchard Brae (by his wife) and gets a bus to the west end.

08.10 He arrives at the west end and walks to IML.

08.25 Arrives at IML.

https://www.scotcourts.gov.uk/search-judgments/judgment?id=fbc08aa6-8980-69d2-b500-ff0000d74aa7

09.00 Gilroy murders Suzanne in IML basement, hides her body, switches off her mobile phone incase anyone phones her and someone hears it and returns to the IML office.

11.15 Gilroy leaves work and travels by taxi to his stepmothers house to collect spare house key.

His stepmother drives him to his house then leaves and Gilroy collects his car key.

11.50 He drives his car to IML where he parks in the basement.

12.00 to 12.30 He loads the body in the car boot then parks his car on the street outside the basement.

12.30 He arrives in the IML office.

16.50 He finishes work and drives home. (probably arriving home at 17.00)
He attends his child's school.(nearest to Vittorias is Leith Walk Primary School)

He goes for a meal at Vittoria on the walk restaurant in Brunswick Street.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13050613.callous-murderer-who-made-crucial-mistakes/

He drives from Vittorias to his home.

He parks his car at home overnight.

The following can be assumed

Suzanne's body was in his car boot from 12 noon to 16.50 parked outside the basement of IML Thistle Street. (nearly 5 hours)

He drove from IML to his home at Silverknowes Brae with Suzanne's body in his car boot. (about 4 miles)

He drove from his home at Silverknowes Brae to Leith Walk Primary school (about 4 miles) with his family in the car and Suzanne's body in the car boot.

He parks his car at Leith Walk Primary school and attends the school leaving the car parked outside the school with Suzanne's body in the car boot.

He then (probably) walks (2 minutes) to Vittorias from the school and leaves Suzannes body in the car boot parked at the school.

He then dines in Vittorias whilst his car is parked at the school with Suzanne's body in the car boot.

He then returns to the car and with his family in the car returns home with Suzanne's body in the car boot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is assumed that he left a dead body in his car boot on Tuesday 4th May from about 12 noon until 9pm whilst parked on Edinburgh's main roads and during that time the dead body was transported through Edinburgh at times when he was sole occupant of the car and at other times when there were other passengers in the car (including children)

Assuming he returned home at about 9pm he leaves his car outside his house (or parked on his driveway if he has one) overnight until the next day Wednesday 5th May 2010.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wednesday 5th May 2010

08.30 to 09.00 He drives from his home to IML Thistle street.

09.00 He parks his car outside IML (not in the basement as "there are no spaces")

11.30 He starts his journey from IML to Lochgilphead.

It is assumed that he left a dead body in his car boot overnight at his home then on the street ouside IML from 09.00 to 11.30.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gilroy must have known that the family plans on the night of Tuesday 4th May would involve using his car and therefore pre-empted this by buying airfresheners and charcoal.

Any smell would have to be covered up incase anyone in the vicinity of his car smelled anything whilst near or passing his car and also if passengers smelled anything whilst in the car.

Imagine now knowing (with hindsight) that you were a passenger in a car with a dead body in the boot (I wonder if any passenger asked to use the boot)

He has some time between 17.00 and when he has to drive to his child's school to dispose of the body.

This seems a bit too risky with there still being daylight and having limited time for disposal and with all of the preplanned smell prevention it shows his callousness and his matter of fact acceptance that he has to drive his car and park his car on main roads with a dead body in the boot and worst of all have his family in the car along with a dead body in the boot.

He has some time after returning home from Vittorias (assumed from about 9pm on Tuesday 4th May to the morning of Wednesday 5th May) to dispose of the body.

There is cover of darkness but if he tells his family he is popping out for a while for some obscure reason this could be questioned and it would be suspicious if his wife/kids told the police he disappeared for a few hours on Tuesday night/Wednesday morning.

If he did pop out on Tuesday night then the disposal site could be anywhere (if he popped out at 9pm on Tuesday 4th May he could have returned at 7am on Wednesday 5th May giving him 10 hours for disposal)

On the balance of probabilities Suzanne was in his car boot when he left for Lochgilpead on Wednesday 5th May at 11.30 (he parked on the street outside IML rather than in the basement therefore he opted not to park in the basement that morning where any smell from his car would more likely be noticed and instead he opted to park on the street outside)

I will visit the Achnafalnich track then go over the bridge near Allt Broighleachan on Monday 8th April. (I will post pictures when I get back in the evening)

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

Achnafalnich track beyond the gate imo

Details of visit to the B8074 today (could not make it yesterday)

1st stop - Achnafalnich gate and forest beyond the gate



As can be seen in this picture the gate is not secured by a chain and padlock (only held together by a thin piece of rope)



The track beyond is not too steep to begin with.

As you get into the trees the track becomes steeper and muddier but a Vectra could get far enough (to be hidden from the main road) in the trees before getting stuck.

I looked for 30 minutes in amongst the trees but could not see anything out of the ordinary.

The area is massive and needs to be thoroughly checked, Gilroy could have dragged the body far into the forest before burial, just one person looking around would take hours.

The forest beyond the Achnalfalnich track on the B8074 is a good choice for a disposal site as the soil is the correct type (peaty podzols) before it gets too steep, the gate can be opened and closed easily and it is a secluded area where a car would not be noticeable once in amongst the trees.







The area beyond the bridge at Allt Broighleachan is a not a good disposal site as there were a few tourists about (probably even more in May) and the area is quite open so Gilroy's car would have been noticed if it was parked anywhere past the bridge.

More on the track beyond the bridge at Allt Broighleachan to follow along with this track near Arinabea off the A85 (which would also not be a good disposal site)

https://www.google.com/maps/@56.446...20.547228&pitch=0&thumbfov=100!7i13312!8i6656

Apologies for the sideways photos (also I have more photos of the Achnafalnich track which I will try to upload)

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

More pictures of the Achnafalnich track

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

Bridge at Allt Broighleachan

The bridge at Allt Broighleachan has been renovated/replaced since the google car took pictures and the pictures below show that there are no unauthorised vehicles allowed over the bridge. Walking over the bridge to the building there is a chain at the gate which does not have a padlock but if Gilroy got past the gate then anyone passing would notice his car immediately. Further on up the track the sides are too steep for a car to drive on and whilst I was there a forestry van was parked on the track (there is tree felling going on in the area at the moment)











The tracks near to Arinabea off the A85 are both gated, the track to the left is padlocked and there is no way a car could get around the gate. The track straight on is also gated and padlocked and although Gilroy could attempt to get round the gate it is very risky as the ditches are deep. I had a look around and could not see anything out of the ordinary.

 

[NightOfTheDemon]

It's the Achnafalnich track imo

The tree area either side of the Achnafalnich track is, in my opinion, the disposal site.

If not then the disposal site is the Rest and Be Thankful area.

The soil type is correct, a car can get in to the tree area and can be shielded from the B8074 by the trees. Vegetation would be attached to the underside of the car.

This circle in this picture shows the area where I think the disposal site is (the line is from the gate to where it gets too steep to risk driving any further up the track)

 

[Rolfe]

Hi, Night of the Demon.

I only just saw these posts as I haven't been checking this part of the forum regularly enough. I went up to the B8074 yesterday and in fact I came to the opposite conclusion to you.

My thoughts have increasingly centred on something you mentioned in post 631. That Gilroy knew where he was going before he left Edinburgh. I can't get past the way he drove almost non-stop to Tyndrum, going through some pretty promising body-disposal countryside on the way. I drove up there trying to think like someone who had a body in the back of the car (as opposed to a bicycle), and was looking for somewhere to hide it. My parameters were that I'd wait until I was into the Highlands, but I had to find somewhere before Dalmally. (The reason for that latter restriction is that I believe he was running an interference pattern with his mobile phone designed to mislead investigators into thinking he'd driven over the Rest and Be Thankful, so he'd be looking for somewhere well before Inveraray.)

Under these circumstances I don't think for a moment I'd have driven through Strathyre, past the turnoff for Balquhidder and all round there without trying to find somewhere. I'm aware that he lost eight minutes on that part of the journey but that's not really long enough for a serious attempt to find a disposal site. It's more likely that he stopped to eat that sandwich he bought in Queensferry Road.

I also wondered if he'd stopped in Callander to buy an OS map, but that's problematic. The bookshop only sells second-hand stuff. I bought a rebound antique copy of Buchan's The Dancing Floor and had a chat with the owner. She said she occasionally gets local maps in, but they go fast as "people come in here wanting one for £2 rather than paying £10 for them in one of the other shops." I asked her about buying new maps and she said several of the other shops sold them. However I had trouble finding one. The tourist information centre only opens at weekends. The newsagent was shut, for no apparent reason. Another possible shop was also shut, "back in 2 minutes" yeah a likely story. I did find new maps in a fishing tackle shop but they didn't have the 1:25,000 377 one for Tyndrum, only more local ones.

So I doubt it that he was able to stop in Callander and buy a map in eight minutes. Also, although I suppose with his military background he could read a map, when did he read it? It takes time to pore over one of these things and decide where you're going to go. And yet if he did buy a map in Callander he immediately got back in his car and drove non-stop to Tyndrum. Does not compute.

So I think the eight minutes was probably a stop to eat the sandwiches. One thing that has struck me about all this is that he wasn't exactly speeding. The AA times are quite relaxed and yet he mostly drove to these times. He wasn't in a huge hurry on the road. Again this speaks to me of someone with a plan who wasn't running round in a panic looking for somewhere to go.

Almost by chance I passed the Green Welly at exactly 13:22 (I left the village here at 10:30 after buying a picnic, and because I went round the bypass straight on to the M8/M9 and didn't go anywhere near the city centre I was still over half an hour ahead of Gilroy's time until I spent over half an hour dicking around in Callander). I drove straight to the Allt Broighleachan, just glancing at the Achnafalnich track on the way. I got to the car park at the Allt Broighleachan at 13:47. It takes nine or ten minutes to drive there from the B8074/A85 junction.

I wasn't impressed by the Achnafalnich track when I saw it, but for reasons explained later I didn't stop to investigate it. There was much much more grass growth than in your pictures from early April and it actually didn't look as if you could get a car up it - there were no defined wheel tracks at all. My gut feeling, from behind the wheel of my own car, was that he wouldn't risk it. That Vectra was his life, right then. If he ditched it, he was toast and looking at a life sentence without any doubt. I wouldn't have taken my Golf up that track yesterday for any money. However I could be wrong and I keep a moderately open mind. I intend to go back and have a closer look.

Bear in mind that the road-end of the Allt Broighleachan track looked a lot different in 2010. I knew the car park was there because you can see it in the OS aerial view, but it definitely wasn't there in 2010 because there's no sign of it on Google Streetview and the Google van went up the B8074 in April 2011. Also, as you will have seen, there has been a lot of very recent tree-felling just there. The entire place is much more open and not only is there a new forestry road coming in over the Eas Urchaidh bridge, it seems to continue on the other side of the road.

I was expecting the new bridge because of what you can see on the OS aerial view, which is a lot newer than the map itself. There is a new forestry road being driven right along the north-west side of Glen Orchy from Bridge of Orchy, and although it wasn't at the Allt Broighleachan when the picture was taken you can see from the direction of the track and the cleared trees that it was heading for there. So I expected to see a new, wider track and a new bridge big enough to take the sort of vehicles that would come on the new road.

However I could also see from the OS aerial view that the new track joins the old track only about 0.5 km up from the bridge. Beyond that the place would be much as it was in 2010 (as can be seen from the photos Hugh Venables took on 1st June 2010). And so it proved to be.

There were several people in the car park when I parked, but they weren't going over the bridge. A guy with a Westie, taking it for a walk. Just tourists, and not many of them, stopped beside the A8074. Remember that car park didn't exist in 2010, the place was gloomy with mature conifers, and there was nowhere to park. There's no reason to believe there would have been people hanging around like that nine years ago.

So I got my bike out of my car and packed the picnic and my map and my camera, and (fortunately) put on a pair of decent walking shoes, and set off across the new bridge.

I hadn't gone far when a Forestry Commission landrover towing a trailer came past in the other direction. The driver and passenger waved and smiled. But bear in mind I was still on the new track at this point, and the landrover came along the new track - I saw it approach. I'm not counting any encounters below where the new track comes in, because that traffic is entirely driven by the recent developments and there's no reason it would have been there in 2010.

Above the new track it was still a bit different from 2010 for a short way, in that there's a lot of felling going on to the right of the track, on the west bank of the Allt Broighleachan. There was another new track (narrow) leading off through the felled plantation which might be an analogue of the track marked there on the OS map but I couldn't swear it was the same line. There was a sign saying don't go there, forestry operations. However, not far above that, everything became extremely peaceful.