America transitions into Gilead

[Meadmaker]

You know this has happened already right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/i-know-whats-buried-in-the-back-yard-a-woman-faces-a-rare-charge-of-self-induced-abortion/2017/04/20/6276452c-1fc1-11e7-a0a7-8b2a45e3dc84_story.html?utm_term=.15f57b90d018

ANd how countries with strong abortion bans deal with miscarriages.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-12-14/salvadoran-women-bond-serving-long-sentences-crime-miscarriage

Really if her neglect caused the miscarriage it only makes sense to charge her. There really is nothing new about this.

El Salvador?

It may be that someday some legislature will pass laws that do everything people say this one does. However, this law doesn't do that.

 

[Ziggurat]

You know this has happened already right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/i-know-whats-buried-in-the-back-yard-a-woman-faces-a-rare-charge-of-self-induced-abortion/2017/04/20/6276452c-1fc1-11e7-a0a7-8b2a45e3dc84_story.html?utm_term=.15f57b90d018

Nope, that's something different. She isn't being charged for having a miscarriage.

If your response is that she's being falsely charged, well, that can happen with any law. Shall we legalize murder because people get wrongfully convicted?

And if your response is that inducing a miscarriage shouldn't be illegal, well, it's been illegal for a long time. Regardless of whether or not that law should be on the books, it's not a sign of some slide into dystopia.

 

[Belz...]

Frankly, I think that a consistent pro-life position would not include any rape exception. If abortion is wrong because the fetus has a right to life and such a right outweighs a woman's right to bodily self-determination, then what does it matter that the fetus is a product of rape? The fetus is not the rapist. The only reason pro-lifers carve out a rape exception is because it is politically wise to do so. Most people are uncomfortable, for obvious reasons, telling a rape victim she must carry the product of rape until birth.

Throwing unborn "babies" under the bus for political expediency doesn't sound very Christian to me. Maybe in the end they don't really care about babies, just the heaven-points they get by saying that they do.

 

[ponderingturtle]

And in the meantime, a state or municipality that attempts to ban abortion has a serious uphill battle.

Not really. I mean look at all the success states have had, soon we will have many states were they have defacto banned it because they drove all clinics out of business. Louisiana has only one and a waiting period so you have to spend several days out of work unless you are local. They of course have to fly in the doctors.

A good model for antigun legislation really, if you needed to drive a couple of hundred miles to buy guns or ammo that would totally not be an infringement on your constitutional rights after all.

 

[carlitos]

Speaking of anti-gun, if early-term abortions become illegal, and women are forced to travel or induce miscarriages ... we could see an expansion of "concealed carry" to include fetuses.

 

[eeyore1954]

Throwing unborn "babies" under the bus for political expediency doesn't sound very Christian to me. Maybe in the end they don't really care about babies, just the heaven-points they get by saying that they do.

Or maybe they do care about babies but feel none will be saved from abortion if they don’t go along with the rape exception.

 

[Stacyhs]

We'll never know but I'd like to know how many of these publicly anti-abortion people have actually had one themselves or encouraged a girlfriend, daughter, or mistress to get one? I suspect quite a lot.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Or maybe they do care about babies but feel none will be saved from abortion if they don’t go along with the rape exception.

But it is great, you get 12 year olds coparenting with their rapists.

"A Michigan judge has granted parental rights to a convicted sex offender, providing the man with access to a child born from the nearly decade-old alleged rape of a 12-year-old girl, the victim’s lawyer said."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/michigan-judge-gives-convicted-rapist-parental-rights-victim-s-son-n809196

 

[ponderingturtle]

We'll never know but I'd like to know how many of these publicly anti-abortion people have actually had one themselves or encouraged a girlfriend, daughter, or mistress to get one? I suspect quite a lot.

Ah but they are wealthy so those standards don't apply to them. Your abortion is always different. It will not stop them protesting the clinic they got it at next week after all.

 

[Belz...]

Or maybe they do care about babies but feel none will be saved from abortion if they don’t go along with the rape exception.

"The good of the many..."

 

[phiwum]

Since women who have miscarriages will also be subject to prison I very well think women stuck in Georgia who suspect they might be pregnant might just do everything they can to keep it a secret from officials until it is born lest they end up doing time if it miscarries.

From WAPO:

HB 481 could not be used to successfully prosecute women, [Planned Parenthood's Staci Fox] argued. But if a woman had a miscarriage, she could be pulled into an investigation looking at whether someone performed an illegal abortion on her.

The consequences are bad, no doubt. But women who have an abortion cannot be prosecuted under that bill, much less women who miscarry.

The bill is really horrible as written. You don't do your case any good by bungling fundamental issues like this.

ETA: Your erroneous claims have been pointed out in this thread previously, as early as post 4 with a link to a relevant and reputable article. Do you just not care?

 

[phiwum]

Or maybe they do care about babies but feel none will be saved from abortion if they don’t go along with the rape exception.

I think that's fair.

 

[Travis]

Alabama passes total abortion ban. No exceptions.


Here. We. Go.

 

[Puppycow]

Does the Slate reference improve the reputation of the idea, or harm the reputation of Slate?

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...bortion-ban-criminal-brian-kemp-horrific.html

It appears that if a woman takes a drug like misoprostol and then has a miscarriage I don't see why she couldn't be prosecuted under the law.

 

[phiwum]

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...bortion-ban-criminal-brian-kemp-horrific.html

It appears that if a woman takes a drug like misoprostol and then has a miscarriage I don't see why she couldn't be prosecuted under the law.

Because the law doesn't include any provisions for prosecuting anyone aside from doctors who provide abortions?

 

[The Don]

Alabama passes total abortion ban. No exceptions.


Here. We. Go.

Shocking as it is to you or me, it's what the vast majority of people in Alabama want. It's not as if the bill squeaked through, it was 25-6 in the Senate and 74-3 in the House.

It's a feature of a federal system, states have significant latitude and it's the reason why California can continue to have legal abortion even if the majority of states ban it.

The same goes for teaching creationism, banning sex education and making contraception difficult to get hold of - it's what the overwhelming majority of people in that state want. I don't understand it, but that's not important.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Realistically, the anti-abortion sentiments of these states is nothing new. These states have been at odds with the Roe v. Wade since the moment the decision was handed down.

What is new is that these states seem to believe that these restrictions could survive court challenge or outright overturn Roe v Wade altogether. Republicans have been very effective on running a tight ship, politically speaking, when it comes to judicial appointments. The goal of changing the law by installing judges has been a staple of RNC election campaigns for many years. Trump's installation of two conservative SCOTUS judges is seen as a unqualified success, even among the Trump-averse segment of the party.

Where in the past passing such a law was seen as a waste of money and effort by conservative states, because it would just get slapped down in court, now they feel it is a good time to pass such laws and put it to the test.

Either the conservatives now feel that overturning Roe v. Wade is in striking distance, or they think a close vote on SCOTUS will be excellent election fodder ("one more SCOTUS judge and Roe is dead, vote Trump 2020")

With RGB's advance age and apparent frailty, i expect the 2020 election to be even more explicitly about who appoints the next SCOTUS judge. Conservatives have historically been better about mobilizing voters around the issue of judicial appointments than liberals.

 

[eeyore1954]

But it is great, you get 12 year olds coparenting with their rapists.

"A Michigan judge has granted parental rights to a convicted sex offender, providing the man with access to a child born from the nearly decade-old alleged rape of a 12-year-old girl, the victim’s lawyer said."

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/michigan-judge-gives-convicted-rapist-parental-rights-victim-s-son-n809196

I hope there is more to the story than the headline.

 

[Puppycow]

Because the law doesn't include any provisions for prosecuting anyone aside from doctors who provide abortions?

Your Wapo article says

Georgia’s law does not unequivocally say that women are exempt

Stern at Slate has responded to this. I recommend reading the full article. But let me just highlight this provision of the law:

The most startling provision of HB 481 grants full legal personhood to fetuses after about six weeks of pregnancy.

Full legal personhood means that you don't need to rely on this law, you could just just charge a woman with murder under existing laws. It would be the same as strangling a baby in its cradle.

 

[Meadmaker]

https://slate.com/news-and-politics...bortion-ban-criminal-brian-kemp-horrific.html

It appears that if a woman takes a drug like misoprostol and then has a miscarriage I don't see why she couldn't be prosecuted under the law.

If she deliberately takes it for the purpose of inducing a miscarriage, after the point of fetal heartbeat, yes. If it's a side effect of a drug that is prescribed for some other condition, no.


There's a bit of a grey area there, as there often is in new laws. If a doctor prescribed a drug that was guaranteed or extremely likely to induce miscarriage, knowing that a woman was pregnant, but there was a legitimate reason for the drug, could he be prosecuted? I think possibly, unless the condition for the prescription was life threatening. As others have pointed out, there is some doubt about whether any pregnant woman could be prosecuted under this law, or only the provider. To me, it looks like the law would allow prosecution of the woman, but existing court precedent says no. Would a future court decide that the precedent held for the new law? Answering questions like those is what lawyers are for.

The point is that this law is very deliberately aimed at making abortion criminal. We all know what abortion means. It means deliberately ending pregnancy, i.e. terminating the existence of a fetus. We don't have to invent other stuff.