America transitions into Gilead

[Meadmaker]

Conservative legislatures have been doing this for decades, knowing their laws would be struck down.

With Kavanaugh replacing Kennedy, that's no longer the case. It might not be struck down at the Supreme Court.

Can you declare a zygote as a dependent on your tax returns?

When the Georgia law takes effect, yes. That's part of the bill. That applies only to Georgia state taxes. They cannot change the way federal law treats federal tax deductions, or those other federal programs you mentioned.

Will there be custody fights? Etc.

Obviously, no one except the pregnant woman can have "custody" of the unborn child, but such things as financial support and paternal rights and responsibilities are included. A man can sue for damages if a woman aborts his child, under the new Georgia law.

It also will make no sense to make exceptions for rape and incest, obviously.

Whether it makes sense or not, they did. At least, they treat pregnancies from rape or incest differently from consensual sex pregnancies. A pregnant woman has a longer amount of time to procure a legal abortion if the abortion was the result of rape or incest.

And why stop at the fetal heartbeat? That's as arbitrary a point as any. We might as well extend it to zygotes, which will raise issues for the IVF industry.

Whether or not it makes sense, they did. They stopped it at fetal heartbeat for consensual sex pregnancies, and 20 weeks for rape or incest.

 

[Minoosh]

That's the straightforward, obvious, meaning of the bill. However, there is enough other language in the bill that I could see someone arguing that it means something else entirely.

Helpfully, Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp commented on the intent of the law:

At the signing ceremony, Kemp said he is grateful to those "throughout Georgia who refused to be silent on this issue, who rejected the status quo, who believe, as I do that every baby has a right to life."

"We must protect life at all stages."

Emphasis mine.

I don't know why you think lawyers would have to "twist" the law in order to conclude that Georgia's bill makes abortion tantamount to murder. Gov. Kemp said every baby has the right to life. In context, it's clear that by "baby" he means any fetus with a detectable heartbeat.

If someone wants to state that life begins at conception, and follows that through to its logical conclusion, I would give them points for integrity. But any bill that makes exceptions for rape or incest is admitting that such fetuses are not actually babies just yet, even if they have a detectable heartbeat.

ETA: And if they're not "babies," what is the state's interest in regulating pregnant women's behavior?

 

[Minoosh]

And besides in politics and law "Well that's settled" is a very weird statement to make.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Do you mean that it's a weird statement to make in any circumstances, including politics and law? Or that aside from politics and law, it's a weird statement?

 

[Meadmaker]

Helpfully, Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp commented on the intent of the law:Emphasis mine.

I don't know why you think lawyers would have to "twist" the law in order to conclude that Georgia's bill makes abortion tantamount to murder. Gov. Kemp said every baby has the right to life. In context, it's clear that by "baby" he means any fetus with a detectable heartbeat.

Because I have read the bill, and the bill uses words, and the words have meaning.

ETA: Make no mistake. They are definitely trying to outlaw abortion, and I am in no way defending that. I just think that when we talk about the bill, we should talk about what it actually does, rather than make up flights of fancy or wild exaggerations. When people do that, it attracts attention and might "energize the base", and it may even take some people off the fence and decide to come to your side. However, when they find out they've been lied to, they get ticked off, and you can lose them for good. It's better to just tell the truth.

There will be no executions. There will be no life sentences. There will be no jail terms for miscarriages. There is no reason that a woman ought to fear talking to her doctor. That's all made up nonsense.

There will definitely be jail time for abortion providers. Reading the bill, it seems to me that there will be jail time for women who have an abortion, although I have read analyses that say it will not happen.

It is conceivable that someone might try to get from that bill to a charge of murder. The bill is just vague enough that someone might give it a shot, but if Georgia has judges with integrity, it won't stick, because the plain language of the bill says something else. However, there's enough vagueness in some parts that someone might give it a try.


And of course, this is just one bill. Will they try to put even more restrictions on next year? I can't rule it out. On the other hand, it's possible that the Supreme Court will uphold Roe v. Wade and it will become a moot point. I can't see what will happen in the future. One thing I am certain is that if the Supreme Court hears a case, and upholds Roe v. Wade, the GOP legislatures will wait until one of the justices retires, and they'll pass yet another law that is clearly in violation of Roe v. Wade and try again. They are definitely trying to end abortion on demand in this country, and they are fairly determined to do it, but they aren't waiting to put young pregnant women on death row.

 

[Minoosh]

They are definitely trying to end abortion on demand in this country, and they are fairly determined to do it, but they aren't waiting to put young pregnant women on death row.

That's just not at all reassuring to me. Earlier I acknowledged that some, including the OP, were putting an alarmist spin on things. But in this case, I'm not sure the OP is wrong.

 

[Travis]

The answer is never. I don't know what's in the Georgia law, but I am extremely confident that there is nothing in it that would make a woman stop seeing a doctor, and I am extremely confident it would not provide the death penalty for a pregnant woman who gets an abortion. I say that without even knowing the contents of the bill. I will probably look it up to say what the bill really says, but I'm confident it is not that.

On the other hand, what they are actually doing is making it illegal to get an abortion. I am fairly certain that some of the various bills that have been passed lately could result in women being thrown in prison for getting, or possible even seeking, an abortion. I think that time is coming soon in America. On the other hand, I've thought that before. I remember the day that the opinion for Webster v. Missouri came out. For some reason, I happened to be home that day from work, and it was being covered live. There was a lot of anticipation that Roe was going to be overturned, but the Supreme Court surprised everyone. We'll see what happens this time around. That was a long time ago. I don't think anyone on the court today was on the court then.

Since women who have miscarriages will also be subject to prison I very well think women stuck in Georgia who suspect they might be pregnant might just do everything they can to keep it a secret from officials until it is born lest they end up doing time if it miscarries.



Already, on Twitter, women in professions that allow them to move are requesting transfers out of Georgia because they don't want to end up on the wrong side of these new laws should they want to have children.

There's a handful of discussions, debates stuck in the popular consciousness that I think have been a symbolic fight for some vague, impossible to put into words broad almost philosophical divide that we've come full circle.

I'll put all my cards on the table. I'm 100% pro-abortion rights to pretty much the most liberal degree that's reasonably on the table (As in I'm for open, no fault access to abortions pretty throughout the entire pregnancy) while at the same time not fully grasping why this is the debate it is.

The abortion debate has now become part of the larger conspiracy, supposedly by Jewish bankers, to end white civilization. It is called "The Great Replacement" and when those crazies teamed up with the pro life crowd, infusing paranoid racism into it, things went a bit off the rail and now here we are.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I believe the a woman's' right to an abortion is a settled issue as of Roe v. Wade.

I believe that the Civil Rights act and the Voting Rights act are settled law.

I believe in marriage equality. Eventually the Supreme Court upheld marriage equality.

Bah those are no more settled than Plessy vs Ferguson. Now that we have a properly christian court again we can get the government back to how the founders intended. Getting rid of all of those has been a solid goal in chosing justices. They are no more settled than Seperate but equal was by the above case or the interpretation the courts used for the second amendment for over 100 years. But hey no big deal surely.

 

[applecorped]

Welcome to Crazy Town

 

[phiwum]

Helpfully, Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp commented on the intent of the law:Emphasis mine.

I don't know why you think lawyers would have to "twist" the law in order to conclude that Georgia's bill makes abortion tantamount to murder. Gov. Kemp said every baby has the right to life. In context, it's clear that by "baby" he means any fetus with a detectable heartbeat.

If someone wants to state that life begins at conception, and follows that through to its logical conclusion, I would give them points for integrity. But any bill that makes exceptions for rape or incest is admitting that such fetuses are not actually babies just yet, even if they have a detectable heartbeat.

ETA: And if they're not "babies," what is the state's interest in regulating pregnant women's behavior?

Agreed. If fetuses have the right to life, this doesn't depend on how fetuses were conceived since the fetus played no role in that. If, on the other hand, the pregnancy threatens the life of the mother, it is reasonable to allow for an abortion (but not necessarily inconsistent not to do so, depending on one's reasoning -- if killing is worse than allowing the woman to die, then an abortion in that case may be morally prohibited, even if both mother and fetus would die in the end).

 

[Meadmaker]

Since women who have miscarriages will also be subject to prison....

Utter and complete hogwash.

If you are going to live in a fantasy world of your own making, why choose dystopia? Come up with some more pleasant delusions. It will lower your blood pressure.

 

[Ziggurat]

There will be no jail terms for miscarriages.

Since women who have miscarriages will also be subject to prison

Who to believe, who to believe....

Already, on Twitter,

I think I found your problem.

Travis. Get off social media. It’s bad for you. You aren’t saving the world, you’re making yourself miserable.

 

[IsThisTheLife]

Biden may like to sniff women's hair, but at least he hasn't felt self-entitled enough to grab them by their kitty-kat.

Just by that measure alone, he's already much farther ahead of the game than the orange octopus.

Some might see it as nuzzling them. And he does it to females of all ages [ETA >> except oldsters AFAIK, so at least he's not a granny-chaser like Micron] including very young girls.

 

[Meadmaker]

Who to believe, who to believe....



I think I found your problem.

Travis. Get off social media. It’s bad for you. You aren’t saving the world, you’re making yourself miserable.

To be fair, it isn't just morons on Twitter saying these things. There are a lot of almost mainstream sources, e.g. Slate, printing it.

These ideas are not in the bill, but might reasonably be said to be within the penumbras and emanations of the legislation.

 

[theprestige]

To be fair, it isn't just morons on Twitter saying these things. There are a lot of almost mainstream sources, e.g. Slate, printing it.



These ideas are not in the bill, but might reasonably be said to be within the penumbras and emanations of the legislation.

Does the Slate reference improve the reputation of the idea, or harm the reputation of Slate?

 

[The Great Zaganza]

If a baby is born with problems due to the mother having used drugs/alcohol etc. during pregnancy - can it sue?

 

[The Greater Fool]

One thing is different than pre-RvW: If abortion is illegal in this state, there is likely a state nearby that will do it.

I predict if too many states effectively outlaw abortion:
1. Abortion tourism will become a thing. Take a vacation pregnant, come home not pregnant;
2. Foundations will eventually pay for poor women to take the vacation;

 

[ponderingturtle]

Utter and complete hogwash.

If you are going to live in a fantasy world of your own making, why choose dystopia? Come up with some more pleasant delusions. It will lower your blood pressure.

You know this has happened already right?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/i-know-whats-buried-in-the-back-yard-a-woman-faces-a-rare-charge-of-self-induced-abortion/2017/04/20/6276452c-1fc1-11e7-a0a7-8b2a45e3dc84_story.html?utm_term=.15f57b90d018

ANd how countries with strong abortion bans deal with miscarriages.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-12-14/salvadoran-women-bond-serving-long-sentences-crime-miscarriage

Really if her neglect caused the miscarriage it only makes sense to charge her. There really is nothing new about this.

 

[BStrong]

You weren't paying really close attention in civics class, were you?

The supreme Court giveth,and a newly appointed supreme Court might very well taketh away.

And in the meantime, a state or municipality that attempts to ban abortion has a serious uphill battle.

 

[Meadmaker]

If a baby is born with problems due to the mother having used drugs/alcohol etc. during pregnancy - can it sue?

That has already happened, and nothing in the Georgia law affects that.

 

[Meadmaker]

And in the meantime, a state or municipality that attempts to ban abortion has a serious uphill battle.

True. If that was your point you are absolutely correct. But some states are just
Itching to get into that fight.