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Trans Women are not Women

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Belz... said:
Which is interesting and sad all at once, given how important cis women supposedly were, not too long ago. I guess they're thrown under the bus when it becomes inconvenient.
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Which is still where I'm at with all of this. All the stupid, arbitrary, and societal imposed roles on women that I could have swore getting rid of was like, super important not that long ago have now come roaring back, put back in, and the same people are demonizing anyone doesn't think they exist because that's somehow "denying the existence" of people who subvert them.

Society: "You're a man. You can't love other men."
Change: "That's a stupid, arbitrary standard. It should not exist. Who you love isn't a defining characteristic of your gender."
Me: "Gotcha, with you. That makes sense. I agree."
Society: "You're a woman. That means you have to stay home and raise the kids."
Change: "That's a stupid, arbitrary standard. It should not exist. Domestic rules are not defining characteristics of your gender."
Me: "Gotcha, with you. That makes sense. I agree."
Society: "You're a man. You can't wear makeup and dresses."
Change: "That's a stupid, arbitrary standard. It should not exist. Manner of dress is not a defining characteristic of your gender."
Me: "Gotcha, with you. That makes sense. I agree."
Society: "Men and women are fundamentally and meaningfully different beyond simple biology, so we have to impose roles on them."
Change: "No that's wrong. The only difference between men and women are biological difference. We shouldn't be imposing standards on the genders that aren't biologically necessary."
Me: "I am totally onboard with this."
Change: "Okay new rule. All the stuff we just got rid of, it's back."
Me: "Wait, what?"
Change: "There's a new group that needs all that societal role, non-biological stuff back, so they can use it in non-traditional ways."
Me: "Okay wait..."
Change: "BIGOT! How dare you deny their self identify! Are you saying these people don't exist!"
Me: "No I'm saying nothing of the sort, I'm just not sure if this makes any sense."
Change: "BIGOT!"

I've said it dozen times across almost as many threads about this topic. You can't have any meaningful concept of "transgenderism" and no meaningful difference between the sexes outside of pure biology.
 
Arcade22 said:
A person who absolutely refuses to recognize that biological males who are more or less visibly and behaviorally indistinguishable from women are actually women, because real women can only ever be those who were born with a certain genetic makeup and that this can never change ever, is called a TRANSPHOBE.
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Aside from the fact that you haven't provided any rationale for why this is so, this position still falls far short of covering everything. What do you do in a case where a male is visually and behaviorally distinguishable from a woman, but still claims to be a woman? Is it transphobic to not recognize them as a woman? Are there ever conditions under which someone claiming to be a woman shouldn't be considered a woman?
 
Belz... said:
Which is interesting and sad all at once, given how important cis women supposedly were, not too long ago. I guess they're thrown under the bus when it becomes inconvenient.
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New toys, some people are in social justice to try and help society get better and find away we can all live together. Others are bitter individuals looking for a philosophy that let's them **** on individuals in the way they feel those individuals **** on them.

This second group trends to try and use the cause of the week as a bludgeon, and retard the progress of actual social justice.
 
Okay so to sum up.

1. There is a meaningful, functional difference between a biological man who identifies as a man and a biological man who identifies as a woman. A man who identifies as a woman should be allowed to do all the things that biological women do.

2. There is no meaningful, functional non-biological differences between men and women. You cannot say that women should only do certain things and men should only do certain things.

3. Pointing out that 1 & 2 contradict/negate each other makes you a bigot.
 
Ziggurat said:
Aside from the fact that you haven't provided any rationale for why this is so, this position still falls far short of covering everything. What do you do in a case where a male is visually and behaviorally distinguishable from a woman, but still claims to be a woman? Is it transphobic to not recognize them as a woman? Are there ever conditions under which someone claiming to be a woman shouldn't be considered a woman?
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I hate how copy and paste the answer to your post will be, I'll save some time.

"No one will take advantage of it, and if they do they will be super obvious and it won't ever cause a problem. "

You will not get the actual answer that would be appropriate, just a "I don't want to talk about it" style dodge.
 
No because their answer is "Just do what the disenfranchised group wants."

They've mistaken pure reflexive agreement for genuine kindness, decency, and respect.
 
JoeMorgue said:
No because their answer is "Just do what the disenfranchised group wants."

They've mistaken pure reflexive agreement for genuine kindness, decency, and respect.
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Well, it's a hierarchy of oppression. The smaller, the more oppressed, the more important. Once the trans issue is resolved, they'll find some other, smaller group to champion over all others.
 
Belz... said:
Well, it's a hierarchy of oppression. The smaller, the more oppressed, the more important. Once the trans issue is resolved, they'll find some other, smaller group to champion over all others.
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Transtranspeople. Biological men who identify as women who identify as men.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Transtranspeople. Biological men who identify as women who identify as men.
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Believe it or not, something like this happens. I only came across it the other day.

Biological men (heterosexual autogynaephiles but we don't need to labour that point) identify as women to satisfy their craving to act out a feminine role and be accepted into "women's mysteries" - that last being a bigger thing with many of them than is often realised. They're heterosexual so they still want sex with women, but since they're now "women" themselves they declare themselves to be lesbian.

Their main desire is a sexual relationship with a lesbian woman, because this is very affirming to their vision of themselves as a woman. (They're seldom interested in a relationship with another transwoman, that's found more commonly with two HSTS people.) But lesbians aren't attracted to people with male bodies, especially to people with penises. So the trans-lesbians don't get on too well and start condemning lesbians as transphobic bigots, vagina fetishists and a number of other nasty names. (Which is what led to the Pride demonstration last year.)

So far so depressingly predictable, it's playing out everywhere, young lesbians (and others who have looked) say that lesbian dating sites are overrun with biological men presenting a feminised persona and calling themselves lesbian.

But the next stage, which I've only heard of referring to a few people, is for the frustrated transwoman who finds his lady penis isn't pleasing the lesbian ladies, to note another interesting phenomenon. Lesbian ladies and "trans men" are not a taboo. Many "trans men" are butch-presenting lesbians who've just taken it a bit further, and they're interested in women. Lesbians, being same-sex attracted, are often quite into this.

So the response? "I want to go on hormones and grow breasts so I can then have a mastectomy and present myself as a transman."

:hb:
 
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Eventually progressivism will have to get over its blind adherence to "self identity" as some sort of sacred holy writ. That is simply a center that cannot hold.

I almost fear that progressives have fought against unreasonable standards for so long that they lost the plot thread and are just kneejerk denying any standard at all that breaks the sacred "Victim Ranking" scale they all have in their heads and assume everyone else agrees with.

The downtrodden, the disenfranchised they always deserve our protection and respect. They aren't always right about everything.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Eventually progressivism will have to get over its blind adherence to "self identity" as some sort of sacred holy writ. That is simply a center that cannot hold.
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It's not exactly the first time that a movement that started from capabilities-based egalitarianism ("progressivism") has gone OTT and it won't be the last. Sometimes people state that the progressive left's heart is in the right place but that its head can get jammed up its own backside. Whatever, when things get to a stage that reasonable people start to conclude is outrageous then the appropriate correction is to take input from counterweight philosophies such as rights based egalitarianism (more typical of the right of centre politically) which can often balance things out.


To the extent that people get entrenched / tribal / dyed-in-the-wool whatever and can not do this kind of course correction ("I can't possibly agree with those folks"), well then they impale themselves on poles of rigid ideology to their and everybody's cost.
 
Francesca R said:
Yes. You are. You do not understand the rationale (legally protected) for single sex services / places in which biological males are excluded from the female version. You display full lack of ability to get it.


Your strong desire for that which you don't understand to be something you can call "transphobia" and the like then intervenes so that you convince yourself that you have got to the bottom of things.


#NotAClue.
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You have had plenty of opportuntiy to put your case across but have singularly failed to do so. In that case I can only argue with the actual points being made not the ones you pretend to have up your sleeve while being obnoxious. Not a clue indeed.

Its not my fault if people are too thick to make their case and rely on stupid arguments instead.
 
Women's Rights has become a respected institution just in time to get the Progressive Reaver treatment:

1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.

https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/status/664089892599631872?lang=en
​

Or maybe it's that other thing, about how it always starts as a revolution, and always ends up as just another establishment grift. Does anyone have the quote I'm looking for?
 
Rolfe said:
I'm still waiting for an explanation of why the happiness of what is still a pretty small minority of people is so all-important that it justifies telling 50% of the population that they have to give up rights they fought pretty damn hard for, the loss of which will make them unhappy.

It's all one way traffic with the trans lobby. Trans demands trump everything, nobody else's interests should be considered at all.
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Yeah and homophobes said THE exact same thing when same-sex marriages were legally recognized. "Help help I'm being repressed! I'm a victim! My narrow, bigoted conception of what marriage is about isn't legally valid anymore! Our rights are being stolen!".

That didn't convince anyone and your fake crocodile tears won't convince people either. You can keep crying about your victimhood until the cows come but it won't do you any good in the end.
 
theprestige said:
Women's Rights has become a respected institution just in time to get the Progressive Reaver treatment:

1. Identify a respected institution.
2. kill it.
3. gut it.
4. wear its carcass as a skin suit, while demanding respect.

https://twitter.com/iowahawkblog/status/664089892599631872?lang=en
​

Or maybe it's that other thing, about how it always starts as a revolution, and always ends up as just another establishment grift. Does anyone have the quote I'm looking for?
Click to expand...

“Every great cause begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.”

― Eric Hoffer
 
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