Trans Women are not Women

[Arcade22]

Let's see here:

A person who absolutely refuses to recognize that same-sex marriages are actually marriages, because marriage can only ever be between people of the opposite sex and this can never ever change, is called a HOMOPHOBE.

A person who absolutely refuses to recognize that people of non-Swedish descent can actually be Swedish, because only people of actual direct Swedish ancestry can only ever be considered true Swedes and this can never ever change, is called a RACIST.

A person who absolutely refuses to recognize that biological males who are more or less visibly and behaviorally indistinguishable from women are actually women, because real women can only ever be those who were born with a certain genetic makeup and that this can never change ever, is called a TRANSPHOBE.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12/0

 

[Arcade22]

That sounds remarkably like you just realised your mistake and would rather attack and smear me than admit it.



And vegetarians are just like Hitler. If you're a vegetarian, you're a Nazi. It's really that simple.

Guilt by association is fun!



Could you step out of that bubble of yours for just ******* moment and accept that, maybe, there are people around you with different perspectives and opinions and that they may not be evil for it? That maybe they're not dishonest, or deluded, or whatever other label you can imagine?

You're trying to beat me into submission by accusations of moral crime rather than addressing points and arguments, and making some of your own. You tried it at first, but when it became obvious that your definition was nonsense, you decided to browbeat your opponents.

You're a bully, plain and simple.

No argument, just grandstanding and victim playing from a transphobe. Go cry me a river, please.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Well, you are certainly judging and labelling, so you qualify for two of three, at least.


As for "denying rights", I recall young women, high schoolers, staging a protest at having to share a locker room with a biologically male student. Some of them carried signs that said "Girls' Rights Matter". It seems they would accuse you, or at least those who pass policies that you support, of infringing on their rights. So, at least according to some people, you get all three check marks.

Yes i know. Gay marriage was denying rights to Christians, race equality denies rights to white folks. Except they dont.

By the way, I am disappointed that after all your complaints about honest debate I took the time to respond to you fully and the ONLY engagement in response was you to assert that transwomen aren't women.

 

[Belz...]

No argument, just grandstanding and victim playing from a transphobe. Go cry me a river, please.

I've got plenty of arguments you've ignored because you're afraid of being called a bigot.

Care to address any of them, mister bully?

 

[Belz...]

Let's see here:

A person who absolutely refuses to recognize that same-sex marriages are actually marriages, because marriage can only ever be between people of the opposite sex and this can never ever change, is called a HOMOPHOBE.

A person who absolutely refuses to recognize that people of non-Swedish descent can actually be Swedish, because only people of actual direct Swedish ancestry can only ever be considered true Swedes and this can never ever change, is called a RACIST.

A person who absolutely refuses to recognize that biological males who are more or less visibly and behaviorally indistinguishable from women are actually women, because real women can only ever be those who were born with a certain genetic makeup and that this can never change ever, is called a TRANSPHOBE.

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed to comply with Rule 12/0

Edited by kmortis: 

Removed response to previously moderated content

And no, disagreeing on your change of a definition is not bigotry; it's rightly asking you to support the change with some sort of argument. So far you've gone in circles and lashed out when it didn't work out.

And you know what? Calling me a transphobe, even after I've advocated FOR trans people AGAINST your nonsense, doesn't change any of that.

 

[Rolfe]

... transwomen aren't women.

They're not.

 

[Arcade22]

I've got plenty of arguments you've ignored because you're afraid of being called a bigot.

Care to address any of them, mister bully?

I've already been called a misogynist in this thread so I'm not afraid of being called a bigot by any means. I've already tried to answer your arguments by showing that they are no different in spirit from the exact same arguments made by homophobes or racists, but you bizarrely take that as a personal attack and refuse to explain why there's any meaningful difference.

 

[Arcade22]

And you know what? Calling me a transphobe, even after I've advocated FOR trans people AGAINST your nonsense, doesn't change any of that.

Yeah the Christian who wants to "heal homosexuals of their illness" would say the same. They aren't homophobic because they love all of gods creations. The real homophobes are those who would let people live in sin!

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Back in my youth, I was taught....

This genuinely may be the root of your problem. Things change. We need to be open to that even if the changes seem strange or unusual or even illogical to us.

And no, that doesn't mean we have to agree with every new idea put in front of us, but it does mean we have to be prepared to look at them with a genuinely open mind and not simply assert that the status quo is right until a huge weight of evidence overturns it.

 

[Arcade22]

They're not.

They are and soon enough the vast majority of people in progressive, tolerant and inclusive western countries will agree.

Deal with it.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

They're not.

They are so.

Argument by assertion is fun, isn't it?

 

[Meadmaker]

Yes i know. Gay marriage was denying rights to Christians, race equality denies rights to white folks. Except they dont.

By the way, I am disappointed that after all your complaints about honest debate I took the time to respond to you fully and the ONLY engagement in response was you to assert that transwomen aren't women.

Well, fair enough. I will end your disappointment, but not right now. I'll respond to the rest of your points after I get back from work. The thing is, I think you will find that all of them come back to the question of whether or not transwomen are women. When I address them, I'll make that connection.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

I mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Among women I have heard complaining about the presence of men in women's locker rooms, exactly zero have said that the problem is that the women might view a penis. Exactly no one is worried about that.

Why do people not get that that isn't the issue? Are men so obsessed with their penises that they think the women must also be obsessed with them? "Ahhh…..the problem must be that they might see my penis. I can see how that might be a problem for them. They probably haven't seen anything so magnificent before. They might faint."

I will be honest and say that this certainly appeared to be the complaint, at least in some cases. Although there isnt really any one objection and people here dishonestly deny at times that any given objection is actually an objection after all.

And later on someone countered that actually penises are one of the issues. So i am genuinely confused becuase those who oppose trans rights in my experience struggle to articulate what the issue actually is.

The discussion we were having was around comfort. Now this can only be about either being uncomfortable with naked transwomen (and presumably genitalia is the issue here?) or being uncomfortable being naked in front of transwomen (because they may find them sexually attractive? this one confuses me slightly because they appear to have no issue being naked in front of lesbians or transmen)

 

[Belz...]

I've already been called a misogynist in this thread so I'm not afraid of being called a bigot by any means.

Well, for the record I don't think you're a misogynist. A bully, yes, but not a woman-hater.

I've already tried to answer your arguments by showing that they are no different in spirit from the exact same arguments made by homophobes or racists

That's not addressing the argument. That's sidestepping it and using guilt by association to shut it down. Who cares if Hitler was a vegetarian? It doesn't have anything to do with arguments about vegetarian diets. Same here. That bigots use a certain argument doesn't mean that everybody who uses similar arguments are bigots. If you want to address an argument, do so on the argument's merits, not on who you think might make it.

Yeah the Christian who wants to "heal homosexuals of their illness" would say the same.

There you go again. No one's saying that trans people should stop feeling the way they do. But it doesn't follow that their feelings are factually accurate. And you'll notice that transition is something I support; just not for children. Wow, that's some mighty bigotry, right?

 

[Arcade22]

They are so.

Argument by assertion is fun, isn't it?

Don't forget argument of popularity. When TERF's showed their faces at London Pride pretty much everyone showed nothing but contempt for them. It just shows how utterly unpopular they are. The only transphobes that actually have any degree of popularity are explicitly hostile towards feminism in all of its forms.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Well, fair enough. I will end your disappointment, but not right now. I'll respond to the rest of your points after I get back from work. The thing is, I think you will find that all of them come back to the question of whether or not transwomen are women. When I address them, I'll make that connection.

Please try not to. As it should be irrelevant what label is applied to someone. If there are genuine issues then they should still exist whether or not we call the transwoman a woman or not, right? And its an argument that goes nowhere.

I mean if there are specific elements of biology that matter it matters not whether we call that person a woman with biology element X or not.

I am not up to speed with how surgery has progressed but lets take a hypothetical future where transmen can replicate the external appearance of a cisman perfectly, genitalia et al. This person in the paradigm of anti trans campaigners would be a woman and should use the womens facilities, right?

A hypothetical pervy lesbian is perfectly fine to go in an ogle women all day, right?

So what is it about transwomen that is actually the issue regarding comfort?

 

[IsThisTheLife]

The meme-makers have christened the phase that the West is now transitioning (sic) "Late Phase Clown World". The pathologisation of cultural norms, mores and taboos and 'normalising' of behaviours which until very recently were categorised as pathological is reaching a veritable crescendo. That, apparently, is "progress". Whoopee.

 

[Arcade22]

Well, for the record I don't think you're a misogynist. A bully, yes, but not a woman-hater.

Ah how sweet of you.

That's not addressing the argument.

Yes it is. It shows that your argument is based on the same kind of bigoted reasoning and is thus unsound. That's the argument that you inexplicably seem unable to notice.

That's sidestepping it and using guilt by association to shut it down. Who cares if Hitler was a vegetarian? It doesn't have anything to do with arguments about vegetarian diets.

It's not guilt by association. It's guilt by bigoted and unsound reasoning.

Same here. That bigots use a certain argument doesn't mean that everybody who uses similar arguments are bigots. If you want to address an argument, do so on the argument's merits, not on who you think might make it.

You have to explain why there's any meaningful difference to your reasoning first. That's the step you stopped short of doing. Again, if only because it would make MtF transsexuals happy and content, what's the harm in accepting them as women? Why is happiness, tolerance, acceptance not a good argument for that? I'm not saying that we need to accept Danny Devito as a woman just cause, after he's caught peeping in women's changing room, he say's "I identify as a woman!". That only happens in Canada.

Edit: it's almost like their version Sovereign Citizen's i guess.

There you go again. No one's saying that trans people should stop feeling the way they do. But it doesn't follow that their feelings are factually accurate.

They can be accurate if only you would allow them to be women in your eyes. That's the whole point. I'm willing to view them as a woman if it would make them happy. You should too, because you want people to be happy right?

And you'll notice that transition is something I support; just not for children. Wow, that's some mighty bigotry, right?

That doesn't stop you from potentially being a bigot by any means. A racist might publicly concede that black people can be Swedish in public while privately they refuse to even consider the possibility.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

There you go again. No one's saying that trans people should stop feeling the way they do. But it doesn't follow that their feelings are factually accurate. And you'll notice that transition is something I support; just not for children. Wow, that's some mighty bigotry, right?

If you support transition then you appear to have an odd position if you deny the end result of that transition. If transwomen are not women then what have they transitioned to? if the end result of the transition is not that they are treated equally with people of the group they have transitioned to then how is that supporting transition?

Why would you support someone transitioning to something if you think they are factually wrong about their situation?

 

[Rolfe]

They are so.

Argument by assertion is fun, isn't it?

They are, only if you re-define "women" to include "men", which is singularly unhelpful.

This insane craze will be over in a decade or two, hopefully sooner, and medicine and psychiatry can concentrate on really helping people with the various forms of gender dysphoria including hormones and surgery only for those who really can't be reconciled to their physiology as it is.

And they'll get back to the very sensible practice of earlier years when men who were undergoing "SRS" were carefully counselled to understand that what they were getting was cosmetic surgery to give them the best facsimile of a female body possible, not actually being turned into women.

Every cell of our bodies has our DNA in it. Our DNA controls every aspect of our physiology, our bodies. Someone with normal male DNA cannot magically achieve female DNA, or acquire a body that has grown from female DNA. Men cannot become women.

If someone truly believes he's Napoleon, we can be kind to him and help him live the best life possible despite his delusion. But we don't have to believe he actually is Napoleon. Indeed, in the context of delusional thinking, psychiatry 101 says you never, never accede to the patient's delusion. We've lost that constraint with the trans lobby, and it's damaging a lot of people,

These things reverse themselves in time, but it looks as if a lot of people, particularly a lot of children, will be harmed before that happens.