Trans Women are not Women

[Belz...]

It means you must stop or else face a public shaming.

That's what I thought.

Uh huh, and when was the last time a trans woman won anything outside of an age group event?

I don't understand your question. Isn't this thread about precisely the sort of person who wins against biological females?

That it assumes the conclusion of the argument. That it denies the very existence of trans as a thing. That the person making the judgement appears in no position to assert it.

No one's saying that trans people don't exist. That's a fantasy of your creation. You apparently can't keep the following two thoughts in your head: that trans people exist and are human just like everybody else, and that they are factually wrong about their gender. It's either both or neither, to you. Well, you're wrong.

 

[Belz...]

Rolfe doesn't discuss transmen very often because she subscribes to the Blanchard pseudoscience, and in his world there are no transmen. There are only suppressed homosexual females who have been brainwashed by evil therapists into believing they have a gender identity issue.

That isn't what I've understood about her posts.

Lets see here: if it look like a woman, sounds like a woman, behaves like a woman... it's a woman. Or at least it's as much of a woman as to make no real difference to me.

Except "it" doesn't look like a woman, right? Not under the hood, that is.

Seriously grow up.

You know what? Renaissance thinkers also thought that the neanderthals of the middle-ages were barbaric children who would have needed to grow up. Except that at least the people in the middle-ages bathed.

Just because you disagree with a position doesn't automatically make that position bad.

Once again this is a lie

You're the one trying to gaslight with that load of tosh

Are you planning on making an actual argument at some point?

 

[Belz...]

The clue to them being men is in them being called transWOMEN?

deary me. you are better than that argument.

Speaking of definitions, do you think trans-neptunian objects are of Neptune?

 

[quadraginta]

That isn't what I've understood about her posts.

<snip>

Which part don't you understand, that that is a substantive summary of Blanchard's theories, or that Rolfe subscribes to them?

 

[Belz...]

Which part don't you understand, that that is a substantive summary of Blanchard's theories, or that Rolfe subscribes to them?

I didn't say that I didn't understand. I said that I don't understand Rolfe's posts to mean what you say she means.

 

[quadraginta]

I didn't say that I didn't understand. I said that I don't understand Rolfe's posts to mean what you say she means.

Well, I can't help that.

She constantly uses Blanchard and his theories as a foundation for the arguments and claims she makes, She reacts quite vehemently to any implied or overt criticism of those theories.

 

[Arcade22]

Eh? The subject at the moment is where biological males shower along with biological females. Meanwhile it was you that suggested that males forcing the viewing of their male body parts on females constitutes abuse,

In the real world undressing and showering in a public changing/shower room wouldn't mean that one is "forcing the viewing of their male body parts" to anyone because nudity is expected. People are expected to be naked and undressed there, even if they have a penis or a pair of saggy old granny tits. They would have to actually do something beyond merely being naked there for it to constitute sexual harassment.

Edit: it's not like you can show up at a nudist beach and act like you are victim of a bunch of sick exhibitionists, anymore than you can complain about the presence of unsightly old people in a public changing room let alone transsexual women with penises.

 

[Arcade22]

Except "it" doesn't look like a woman, right? Not under the hood, that is.

Now we are back to the men whose penises have been destroyed are not considered men anymore, no matter what they look or act like. Maybe it's not such a good way to define gender solely by peoples genitals?

 

[Belz...]

Now we are back to the men whose penises have been destroyed are not considered men anymore, no matter what they look or act like. Maybe it's not such a good way to define gender solely by peoples genitals?

You are SO reflexively contrarian on this issue that you made up this interpretation. I didn't mention genitals, you did.

 

[Arcade22]

You are SO reflexively contrarian on this issue that you made up this interpretation. I didn't mention genitals, you did.

I'm pretty sure most people would've assumed you meant genitals. It's usually not possible to see what people literally look under their skin, smart ass.

 

[Belz...]

I'm pretty sure most people would've assumed you meant genitals.

No, you don't get to project your own narrow interpretation over to other people. Own it.

It's usually not possible to see what people literally look under their skin, smart ass.

Are you really under the delusion that genitals are the only distinction between men and women? You're seriously blinded by ideology, if that's the case.

 

[Belz...]

Now we are back to the men whose penises have been destroyed are not considered men anymore, no matter what they look or act like. Maybe it's not such a good way to define gender solely by peoples genitals?

And coming back to this, this is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever read. Do you know that humans are tetrapods, which are defined as having four limbs? Do you think we stop being tetrapods if we get an arm cut off?

 

[Arcade22]

No, you don't get to project your own narrow interpretation over to other people. Own it.

Oh so you are doubling down on this? What did you mean by what "they looked like under the hood" then? What the inside of their torso cavity looks like? Their colon? Please I want to know.

Are you really under the delusion that genitals are the only distinction between men and women?

I'm implying pretty much the exact opposite of that. In fact I was implying the exact opposite of that. That being a man isn't about whether you have a penis or not.

 

[Arcade22]

And coming back to this, this is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever read. Do you know that humans are tetrapods, which are defined as having four limbs? Do you think we stop being tetrapods if we get an arm cut off?

No? That was the point...

 

[Meadmaker]

Uh huh, and when was the last time a trans woman won anything outside of an age group event?

Does Caster Semenya count? If not, in this thread it was stated that the silver and bronze medalists who lost to her in Rio were transwomen. I didn't know that, so I'm just taking what I saw in this thread to be true.

Of course, some people say that an Olympic silver medal is just the first loser, so maybe that doesn't count as winning. Of course, such things are mostly said by people who get tired getting up off the couch to go to the fridge.



ETA: And Mary Gregory smashed a bunch of world records in powerlifting just last week. Pretty impressive lady, there. Very, very, strong. Although I saw a headline today that the keepers of the records have decided that hers won't be entered into the record books. I didn't read the story to find out why not. What possible reason could there be?

 

[Meadmaker]

Yeah and it's not pretty, there's nothing misogynistic about acknowledging that. I've seen more than enough old fat men in public showers and locker rooms, but you know what? I handle it. Public showers does not mean that only pretty and nice things are allowed.

You could do the same by growing up and stop acting like some special snowflake who responds to penises just like superman does to kryptonite. No one is forcing you to look and if they are then that's sexual harassment.

I mentioned it before, but it bears repeating. Among women I have heard complaining about the presence of men in women's locker rooms, exactly zero have said that the problem is that the women might view a penis. Exactly no one is worried about that.

Why do people not get that that isn't the issue? Are men so obsessed with their penises that they think the women must also be obsessed with them? "Ahhh…..the problem must be that they might see my penis. I can see how that might be a problem for them. They probably haven't seen anything so magnificent before. They might faint."

 

[Meadmaker]

People who feel qualified to judge, label and deny rights to others in my experience are not people I want to associate with.

Well, you are certainly judging and labelling, so you qualify for two of three, at least.


As for "denying rights", I recall young women, high schoolers, staging a protest at having to share a locker room with a biologically male student. Some of them carried signs that said "Girls' Rights Matter". It seems they would accuse you, or at least those who pass policies that you support, of infringing on their rights. So, at least according to some people, you get all three check marks.

 

[Meadmaker]

Seems to me the problem is very clear: People are basically complaining about inclusivity. Unfortunately, there are no gray areas for a situation like this. It's either you include everyone, or you create separate categories for each "group". Because as soon as you start making exceptions, you have to justify why that particular case deserves the exception.

So again, since we're never all going to reach an unanimous agreement about whether or not trans women are just like regular women, there are 2 solutions:

1) Create a category only for trans people to compete
2) Destroy all categories and have a mixture of every single kind of human being competing against each other. Trans, disabled, children, people with three arms, old people, giants, midgets, etc...

Some people are. Others have different issues.

 

[Darat]

And if the 'looks like a woman' person turns out to have male genitalia while showering alongside people who have female genitalia?

eta: I recall a film from many years ago where a hetero (cis) male gets together for sex with a very convincing trans/transvestite (can't remember the details) 'woman'. Their foreplay is going swimmingly until he puts his hand down 'her' panties, only to encounter a full set of boy bits. Should that make 'no real difference' to the cis male in that situation? It certainly makes a huge dent in your definition of 'woman' for anybody in a similar situation.

Is every heterosexual man expected to find every woman sexually attractive? Of course not, so if a woman has genitals that a man doesn't like he is entirely within his rights not to have sex with that woman. There are plenty trans men I have seen that I find physically attractive, would I have sex with them if they had female genitals? I truthfully don't know. I don't find female genitals at all attractive or sexually arousing so I don't think I would but humans are strange, inconsistent creatures so who knows?

 

[GlennB]

In the real world undressing and showering in a public changing/shower room wouldn't mean that one is "forcing the viewing of their male body parts" to anyone because nudity is expected. People are expected to be naked and undressed there, even if they have a penis or a pair of saggy old granny tits. They would have to actually do something beyond merely being naked there for it to constitute sexual harassment.

Edit: it's not like you can show up at a nudist beach and act like you are victim of a bunch of sick exhibitionists, anymore than you can complain about the presence of unsightly old people in a public changing room let alone transsexual women with penises.

You show up at a nudist beach fully expecting to see all types of body - male, female, fat, thin, old, young ... You've contracted to accept that simply by being present at such a beach.

You show up in a changing room expecting to see bodies of the gender marked on the door including, in the women's room, saggy granny tits if they happen to be present.