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Trans Women are not Women

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I really disagree with this decision, they are saying that she must take very powerful drugs to compete. Are they happy to pay for her medical bills from any side effects of these powerful drugs? By the way with her this decision is not about trans women, it is about women who have higher than average for women testosterone levels in their blood. I do hope they will enforce this consistently, so we shall see taller than average men and shorter than average men not being allowed to compete in races unless their height is adjusted to be the average for men. Can't have people using their natural biological gifts to unfair advantage.

It was interesting that BBC Breakfast had a sports scientist on who pointed out the elite competition can be dominated genetic outliers that give a competitive advantage, and there are many such traits that are deemed acceptable that are no less severe than the one in this particular case.
 
What's wrong with the current categories? Men compete against men and women against women that seems to be how sport is generally played.

Actually it's males against males and females against females. The problem is trying to get people who aren't normally classified as those into those categories. So the solution would be no categories, so no one can complain. Right?
 
Guess what else? They didn't say Semenya was a woman, either.

Semenya is intersex. Neither one nor t'other.

Did they actually say that? Is abnormally high testosterone enough to be considered an intersex condition? Then of course abnormally low testosterone must also be intersex. What are the exact definitions then to qualify?
 
Any googling of testosterone/athletics/performance is totally swamped with the Semenya case, but I believe that male athletes who are found to have unnaturally high testosterone levels are liable to disqualification, loss of medals, suspension and the like.

There was the famous case of Olympic sprint champion Dennis Mitchell, who was let off a possible 2-year suspension after he claimed his too-high testosterone level had been boosted by a marathon sex session with his wife.

The point - if unnaturally high testosterone is treated this way among men, why should women get a free pass? Because it's always high in Semenya's case, someone will say, it's her natural state. In which case any male can avoid banning by keeping theirs high at all times too, so their testing records don't show any wild peaks.
 
Notice how the choice is always to compete in the category where you have a huge advantage and are assured victory and not in the category where you actually have to work your ass off to be competitive?


I doubt that Semenya is "assured victory" as a female athlete. I don't think her natural advantage is enough to enable her to compete at that level without living an athletic life and working quite hard at it. I also believe that no matter how hard she works, she isn't "man enough" to ever be competitive on the male circuit.


In the abstract, I agree with The Atheist's position that intersexed is a separate category, but in reality there are so very few people in that category that you can't do that.


It's a difficult situation to judge, to be sure. One thing that I am absolutely, 100% against is the position that the athletic governing body seems to be taking, which is, "We'll let you compete as a woman, but only if you take these drugs." That, to me, seems a very, very, bad idea.


So what's left? We either say, "You are a freak, and shouldn't be allowed to compete anywhere." or we let her compete as a woman.


And the actual decision in any individual case, like Semenya's, might depend on exactly what the gynecologist sees, but isn't going to tell anyone. I said it should depend on genitalia. Does she have a vagina, or does she have a very rare birth defect that didn't allow "his" junk to end up fully and normally formed?
 
I did think Semenya was a separate case when all this originally happened and it was pretty obvious it wasn't really clear to everyone. And I would point out including her.

Now Semenya has had so many tests etc. Tend to agree with Atheist
 
You know, "intersex" isn't a category. It's a catch-all term for disorders (or "differences" to be politically corrext) in sexual development. There are about 40 or so distinct conditions under this umbrella and in the vast majority of these cases there is no doubt at all as to the person's sex. These are males or females with a recognisable abnormality of some sort. Even hypospadias is included in this category but I don't think anyone would claim that a child with hypospadias isn't a boy.

In a fairly small minority of cases the sex of the person is indeed ambiguous, at least on external viewing. However genetic and other testing can correctly classify these people as well. If Caster Semenya had been born in a different society with better access to healthcare as a baby it's quite possible she would have been discovered to be male at that stage, and brought up as a boy. Since that didn't happen we don't know how she would have developed. All we know is that she was brought up as a girl and has never sought to claim a masculine identity.

However, "intersex" individuals cover a wide variety of different conditions and they can't be put in a single box and told, here, this is where you compete. Once again the males would trounce the females. And as I said, even people with DSDs are either male or female.

While it's true that in >99% of cases XX chromosomes make a girl and XY a boy, there are a small number of exceptions to this. In fact, the presence of a Y makes a boy and the absence of a Y makes a girl. To go further than that, it isn't the Y chromosome as such that makes a boy, but the presence of an SRY gene (which is usually located on that chromosome). However some XY individuals do not have a functioning SRY gene and these develop as girls (Swyer's syndrome). Conversely it occasionally happens that an X chromosome has an SRY gene translocated on to it and someone with this genotype will develop as a male even though the genotype is XX.

So, functional SRY gene = male, no functional SRY gene = female? Not quite.

In order for the SRY gene to produce a male foetus, functional androgen receptors are required. Thus someone with an XY genotype, and an SRY gene, but who has no functioning androgen receptors, will also be female. This condition is known as CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity syndrome.

So, absence of SRY gene = female. Presence of functional SRY gene but absence of functional androgen receptors = female. Presence of functional SRY gene and functional androgen receptors = male.

It is Caster Semenya's misfortune that she is in the third of these categories. She is genetically XY, but this was concealed for many years (until yesterday as it happens). She was always presented as a hyperandrogenised, virilised female, and on that basis I and many other people vociferously supported her right to compete as a woman. (The condition she was believed to have is late-onset adrenal hyperlplasia, where a woman's adrenal glands make abnormally large amounts of testosterone.)

We were misled. Caster Semenya is XY, but was born with her testes located internally and the external appearance (as a baby) of being a girl. The cause of this appears to be a poor but not nonexistent response to androgens, known as PAIS - partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. (This part is informed speculation at this stage.) She was brought up as a girl in perfectly good faith, until at puberty she began to look more and more masculine. She competed in women's athletics, with the partial and misleading information that was made public leading everyone to believe she was XX with a virilisation syndrome. However, she had been tested and the SA authorities knew perfectly well this wasn't true. The athletics federations must have known too.

If this had been the 1970s she'd have been disqualified as soon as her genotype was discovered, but it wasn't. This was the time when the athletics authorities were caving in to pressure from the trans rights activists to open women's sports to male-bodied people. And it appears that they were content to let Semenya's case slide past, possibly because of these ongoing developments.

Semenya has become more and more obviously masculine as she has matured. She has a Y chromosome and that Y chromosome has an SRY gene on it, and she clearly does not have CAIS (this is what someone with CAIS looks like). She may well have PAIS, but she has functional androgen receptors as can be clearly seen from her evidently masculine phenotype, and this is proved by the fact that medically reducing her testosterone concentration significantly reduces her performance.

The new rules to allow males to compete in women's events required male-bodied athletes to lower their testosterone to below 10 nmol/l. The gross unfairness of this to actual women is something I will leave aside for now. In fact this did not impact on Semenya, because while normal male testosterone will spike to 40 to 50 nmol/l, she didn't go above 10 nmol/l naturally. (Normal female concentration is more like 0.5 nmol/l.) So that was fine, Semenya didn't have to take the testosterone-lowering drugs.

Then it was proposed to lower the ceiling for women's events to 5 nmol/l, to go some way to addressing the manifest unfairness of the 10 nmol/l rule. This did impact on Semenya, who has natural testosterone concentrations over 5 nmol/l. She knows that if she reduces this, her performance will be impacted. So she appealled to the CAS on the grounds that as she was actually a woman, this rule should not apply to her.

This is where it gets murky. On the assumption that she was a hypervirilised XX, many people (including me) supported her. However, she's not a hypervirilised XX. She's XY. She is, technically, biologically male, and the CAS knows that. She's not an advantaged female, she's a disadvantaged male. They ruled that as a biological male, she is subject to the same restrictions as other biological males who are permitted to compete in women's events. She has to lower her testosterone.

And this seems like a just ruling to me. The CAS was quite explicit that if the situation had been as we were all led to believe, that she was XX with adrenal hyperplasia, she would have won the case. But she's not, and so she lost.

And she has lost badly, because her XY genotype is now public knowledge, although it was something she really didn't want known. The people who said "look at that, that's a man" are feeling vindicated right now. Goodness knows what this is doing to her mental health.

But it seems the SA athletics authorities were too keen to keep the star runner on their team, without her having to lower her testosterone, that they forced the issue regardless. Despite knowing that she was XY and biologically male, they tried to browbeat the CAS with allegations of racism and discrimination to bully them into treating Semenya as a female. The CAS declined to be bullied, and now the whole story (or most of it) is public knowledge.

It's a real shame for Caster Semenya, but it was the right decision.
 
Can we get Michael Phelps kicked out and his medals and records revoked now too for being a medical oddity with advantages to his performance?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/we-celebrated-michael-phelpss-genetic-differences-why-punish-caster-semenya-for-hers/2019/05/02/93d08c8c-6c2b-11e9-be3a-33217240a539_story.html?utm_term=.10144b77ab1d

" Phelps possesses a disproportionately vast wingspan, for example. Double-jointed ankles give his kick unusual range. In a quirk that borders on supernatural, Phelps apparently produces just half the lactic acid of a typical athlete — and since lactic acid causes fatigue, he’s simply better equipped at a biological level to excel in his sport.

I’m thinking of those stories, because I’m thinking about the ways Michael Phelps was treated as wondrous marvel. Nobody suggested he should be forced to have corrective surgery on his double-jointed ankles, nobody decided he should take medication to boost his lactic levels."

Clearly Phelps needs massive corrective surgery to be allowed to compete. It is after all only in the name of fairness right? Genetic freaks like the two of them need to be kept out of sports.
 
Feelings and " other " category rights are one thing but DNA is pretty clear.

Half of Olympic sports looks like the East German women's weight lifting team joke anymore really, but they felt a line had to be drawn and Ms Caster was the definitive point.

There is still a future for the other category athletes. Add in a big enough fan base and create non gender specific competitions in the popular sports. Need not be professional level exclusively rather something many could join and rub elbows with the pros out on the track.

Take some of the snobbery out and give the sports back to the people.
 
Actually it's males against males and females against females. The problem is trying to get people who aren't normally classified as those into those categories. So the solution would be no categories, so no one can complain. Right?
People put this forward as a reductio but I'm not sure whether halving top level sport would be bad for humankind.
 
People put this forward as a reductio but I'm not sure whether halving top level sport would be bad for humankind.

But if you get rid of women's top level sport, you end up getting rid of girls' mid level sport. I think that would be bad.
 
You know, "intersex" isn't a category. It's a catch-all term for disorders (or "differences" to be politically corrext) in sexual development. There are about 40 or so distinct conditions under this umbrella and in the vast majority of these cases there is no doubt at all as to the person's sex. These are males or females with a recognisable abnormality of some sort. Even hypospadias is included in this category but I don't think anyone would claim that a child with hypospadias isn't a boy.

...


It's a real shame for Caster Semenya, but it was the right decision.

Thanks for that write up. Very informative.


It's a tough case, to be sure. I'm still inclined to let her compete as a woman, but I'm far less confident in that judgment now that I've read what you wrote.

I'm still of the opinion that if someone was ever clearly a biological male, they should only be allowed on the men's side. That doesn't apply to Caster, but it sounds like that might just be a mistake. I will have to think about it.
 
But if you get rid of women's top level sport, you end up getting rid of girls' mid level sport. I think that would be bad.

Exactly the point.

I don't think we can have all of the cake, here. If we have everyone compete in the same category, women will essentially be taken out of top competitions, which affects the lower-tier ones as well. If we instead split those in two -- one for each sex -- that problem disappears, but it means that marginal cases such as trans people and intersex might not be able to compete at all.

Cold equation: exclude less than 1% of the abled population, or 50%?
 
Actually it's males against males and females against females. The problem is trying to get people who aren't normally classified as those into those categories. So the solution would be no categories, so no one can complain. Right?
That seems rather daft to me.
 
Any googling of testosterone/athletics/performance is totally swamped with the Semenya case, but I believe that male athletes who are found to have unnaturally high testosterone levels are liable to disqualification, loss of medals, suspension and the like.

There was the famous case of Olympic sprint champion Dennis Mitchell, who was let off a possible 2-year suspension after he claimed his too-high testosterone level had been boosted by a marathon sex session with his wife.

The point - if unnaturally high testosterone is treated this way among men, why should women get a free pass? Because it's always high in Semenya's case, someone will say, it's her natural state. In which case any male can avoid banning by keeping theirs high at all times too, so their testing records don't show any wild peaks.
The word you are getting wrong is "unnaturally", in the world of sports that means pretty much by drugs. No athlete is banned because to use another example they have higher blood oxygen carrying capacity because they've been training at high altitude, that's considered natural, achieve the same effect by a drug and that's considered unnatural and isn't allowed. If athletics wants to prevent people with biology that is ourside the "average" or "norm" then they would be preventing all their current athletes from competing unless they take drugs to bring them back to the norm.
 
You know, "intersex" isn't a category. It's a catch-all term for disorders (or "differences" to be politically corrext) in sexual development. There are about 40 or so distinct conditions under this umbrella and in the vast majority of these cases there is no doubt at all as to the person's sex. These are males or females with a recognisable abnormality of some sort. Even hypospadias is included in this category but I don't think anyone would claim that a child with hypospadias isn't a boy.

In a fairly small minority of cases the sex of the person is indeed ambiguous, at least on external viewing. However genetic and other testing can correctly classify these people as well. If Caster Semenya had been born in a different society with better access to healthcare as a baby it's quite possible she would have been discovered to be male at that stage, and brought up as a boy. Since that didn't happen we don't know how she would have developed. All we know is that she was brought up as a girl and has never sought to claim a masculine identity.

However, "intersex" individuals cover a wide variety of different conditions and they can't be put in a single box and told, here, this is where you compete. Once again the males would trounce the females. And as I said, even people with DSDs are either male or female.

While it's true that in >99% of cases XX chromosomes make a girl and XY a boy, there are a small number of exceptions to this. In fact, the presence of a Y makes a boy and the absence of a Y makes a girl. To go further than that, it isn't the Y chromosome as such that makes a boy, but the presence of an SRY gene (which is usually located on that chromosome). However some XY individuals do not have a functioning SRY gene and these develop as girls (Swyer's syndrome). Conversely it occasionally happens that an X chromosome has an SRY gene translocated on to it and someone with this genotype will develop as a male even though the genotype is XX.

So, functional SRY gene = male, no functional SRY gene = female? Not quite.

In order for the SRY gene to produce a male foetus, functional androgen receptors are required. Thus someone with an XY genotype, and an SRY gene, but who has no functioning androgen receptors, will also be female. This condition is known as CAIS - complete androgen insensitivity syndrome.

So, absence of SRY gene = female. Presence of functional SRY gene but absence of functional androgen receptors = female. Presence of functional SRY gene and functional androgen receptors = male.

It is Caster Semenya's misfortune that she is in the third of these categories. She is genetically XY, but this was concealed for many years (until yesterday as it happens). She was always presented as a hyperandrogenised, virilised female, and on that basis I and many other people vociferously supported her right to compete as a woman. (The condition she was believed to have is late-onset adrenal hyperlplasia, where a woman's adrenal glands make abnormally large amounts of testosterone.)

We were misled. Caster Semenya is XY, but was born with her testes located internally and the external appearance (as a baby) of being a girl. The cause of this appears to be a poor but not nonexistent response to androgens, known as PAIS - partial androgen insensitivity syndrome. (This part is informed speculation at this stage.) She was brought up as a girl in perfectly good faith, until at puberty she began to look more and more masculine. She competed in women's athletics, with the partial and misleading information that was made public leading everyone to believe she was XX with a virilisation syndrome. However, she had been tested and the SA authorities knew perfectly well this wasn't true. The athletics federations must have known too.

If this had been the 1970s she'd have been disqualified as soon as her genotype was discovered, but it wasn't. This was the time when the athletics authorities were caving in to pressure from the trans rights activists to open women's sports to male-bodied people. And it appears that they were content to let Semenya's case slide past, possibly because of these ongoing developments.

Semenya has become more and more obviously masculine as she has matured. She has a Y chromosome and that Y chromosome has an SRY gene on it, and she clearly does not have CAIS (this is what someone with CAIS looks like). She may well have PAIS, but she has functional androgen receptors as can be clearly seen from her evidently masculine phenotype, and this is proved by the fact that medically reducing her testosterone concentration significantly reduces her performance.

The new rules to allow males to compete in women's events required male-bodied athletes to lower their testosterone to below 10 nmol/l. The gross unfairness of this to actual women is something I will leave aside for now. In fact this did not impact on Semenya, because while normal male testosterone will spike to 40 to 50 nmol/l, she didn't go above 10 nmol/l naturally. (Normal female concentration is more like 0.5 nmol/l.) So that was fine, Semenya didn't have to take the testosterone-lowering drugs.

Then it was proposed to lower the ceiling for women's events to 5 nmol/l, to go some way to addressing the manifest unfairness of the 10 nmol/l rule. This did impact on Semenya, who has natural testosterone concentrations over 5 nmol/l. She knows that if she reduces this, her performance will be impacted. So she appealled to the CAS on the grounds that as she was actually a woman, this rule should not apply to her.

This is where it gets murky. On the assumption that she was a hypervirilised XX, many people (including me) supported her. However, she's not a hypervirilised XX. She's XY. She is, technically, biologically male, and the CAS knows that. She's not an advantaged female, she's a disadvantaged male. They ruled that as a biological male, she is subject to the same restrictions as other biological males who are permitted to compete in women's events. She has to lower her testosterone.

And this seems like a just ruling to me. The CAS was quite explicit that if the situation had been as we were all led to believe, that she was XX with adrenal hyperplasia, she would have won the case. But she's not, and so she lost.

And she has lost badly, because her XY genotype is now public knowledge, although it was something she really didn't want known. The people who said "look at that, that's a man" are feeling vindicated right now. Goodness knows what this is doing to her mental health.

But it seems the SA athletics authorities were too keen to keep the star runner on their team, without her having to lower her testosterone, that they forced the issue regardless. Despite knowing that she was XY and biologically male, they tried to browbeat the CAS with allegations of racism and discrimination to bully them into treating Semenya as a female. The CAS declined to be bullied, and now the whole story (or most of it) is public knowledge.

It's a real shame for Caster Semenya, but it was the right decision.

Exactly the point.

I don't think we can have all of the cake, here. If we have everyone compete in the same category, women will essentially be taken out of top competitions, which affects the lower-tier ones as well. If we instead split those in two -- one for each sex -- that problem disappears, but it means that marginal cases such as trans people and intersex might not be able to compete at all.

Cold equation: exclude less than 1% of the abled population, or 50%?


Until I was pointed to Rolfe's post, I thought she was a hypervirlilsed XX and thought she should compete as a woman.

I think chromosomes* have to be the least arbitrary discriminator - and in the case of women's sport a line should be drawn, and I'd say at the limit of natural endowment but not artificial. Setting a limit solely on testosterone, but allowing genetic males to compete seems problematic because there almost certainly is a legacy effect - say from the testosterone at adolescence, so a genetic male who has transitioned might be at an advantage. 8enotto mentioned the East German weightlifting team, it's fairly easy to imagine a regime like the DPRK coercing some male athletes to transition if the only limit was testosterone levels for the previous 6-months, say.



*I am unsure where XXY, for example should be classed.
 
Any googling of testosterone/athletics/performance is totally swamped with the Semenya case, but I believe that male athletes who are found to have unnaturally high testosterone levels are liable to disqualification, loss of medals, suspension and the like.

There was the famous case of Olympic sprint champion Dennis Mitchell, who was let off a possible 2-year suspension after he claimed his too-high testosterone level had been boosted by a marathon sex session with his wife.

The point - if unnaturally high testosterone is treated this way among men, why should women get a free pass? Because it's always high in Semenya's case, someone will say, it's her natural state. In which case any male can avoid banning by keeping theirs high at all times too, so their testing records don't show any wild peaks.

BBC inside science had an interview about the performance implications today: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0004mfv



The word you are getting wrong is "unnaturally", in the world of sports that means pretty much by drugs. No athlete is banned because to use another example they have higher blood oxygen carrying capacity because they've been training at high altitude, that's considered natural, achieve the same effect by a drug and that's considered unnatural and isn't allowed. If athletics wants to prevent people with biology that is ourside the "average" or "norm" then they would be preventing all their current athletes from competing unless they take drugs to bring them back to the norm.

According to the poster Tom P on Badscience, one can easily check if the testosterone is artificially elevated because it is too high for the precursors in the bloodstream.

Subject: Caster Semenya (again)
 
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