Trans Women are not Women

[The Atheist]

And more specifically, is this the reason that this governing body made this decision for these races only (specifically between 400m and the mile)?

I can only presume that's correct, but I was surprised at the ruling. I would have thought sprinting was where the testosterone is most useful.

Worked for Ben Johnson.

I don't want women competing with men for many of the reasons stated previously, but this may be a fringe case that, when making decisions in the future, I hope we don't hang our hats on.

Given that both other medallists in the 800m at Rio were also intersex, I don't see it as that far on the fringe. That extra pair of nuts that other women don't have seems to give a special advantage.

The privacy concerns for the athlete are important to consider, but I'm not sure where to go from here if we can't test and then reveal the outcome of the test.

That's why testosterone levels are the ideal base to work from. It stops drug cheats, it stops the Semenyas, and it makes bloody sure former blokes aren't carrying testosterone as well as the muscle mass.

To me, that's the only downside of the move - it will mean people who used to be blokes, notably Lauren Hubbard - will be able to participate in women's events because their levels are low enough, while not removing the advantages of having a larger, male, body to start with.

 

[Darat]

Nope. She is a woman, they even forced a test on her and guess what they didn't say she wasn't a woman. What they found is that she is a woman with a higher than average amount of testosterone, just like many other athletes have a biological advantage in say percentage of different types of muscles. And again this has nothing to do with trans people competing, this is about women with higher than average levels of testosterone having to use powerful and quite dangerous drugs if they want to compete against fellow women. At the top end of sport we are not talking about average people, we are talking about a miniscule sliver of people with often a "natural" biological advantage, what they have decided is that they are fine with all these other biological advantages a top athlete may have but not this particular one. It is also a perverse decision for an organisation that says it wants no drugs in the sport.

 

[Meadmaker]

Nope. She is a woman, they even forced a test on her and guess what they didn't say she wasn't a woman. What they found is that she is a woman with a higher than average amount of testosterone, just like many other athletes have a biological advantage in say percentage of different types of muscles. And again this has nothing to do with trans people competing, this is about women with higher than average levels of testosterone having to use powerful and quite dangerous drugs if they want to compete against fellow women. At the top end of sport we are not talking about average people, we are talking about a miniscule sliver of people with often a "natural" biological advantage, what they have decided is that they are fine with all these other biological advantages a top athlete may have but not this particular one. It is also a perverse decision for an organisation that says it wants no drugs in the sport.

I must agree completely.

I'm most definitely against allowing males to compete as females just because they feel like females, or identify as females, or whatever, but as I understand things, Caster Semenya is a woman who has abnormally high testosterone levels. Well? So what?

I've also heard that she is "really" intersexed, as opposed to female, and my opinion on that is she's close enough. I mean, she has enough issues to deal with due to her sexual makeup, so, do we really want to say it is "unfair" to use her natural characteristics in an area where they actually work in her favor?

No one should be forced to take drugs in order to be eligible to compete.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm most definitely against allowing males to compete as females just because they feel like females, or identify as females, or whatever, but as I understand things, Castor Semenya is a woman who has abnormally high testosterone levels.

What definition are you using here?

ETA: Not being snarky, it's my understanding that intersex disorders tend to blur the seemingly clear lines between the two sexes.

 

[Meadmaker]

What definition are you using here?

The definition I'm using is the one that a teenage boy would use. Can I **** it?

If the answer is yes, and not just because someone surgically altered her to make it sort of work, she's a woman.

In very exceptional cases, if someone insists they are not the sex that they appear to be, based on conventional wisdom, I'm willing to listen to arguments to the contrary, but only if they are based in biology, not psychology.



(It always seems so awkward to actually write out the naughty word knowing the autocensor will take care of it, and that that's the preferred method of dealing with naughty words.)

ETA: (After seeing your ETA). Yes, I know that intersexed characteristics make for some interesting challenges. My general thought on the subject is that if the characteristics are so blurred that it's not realistically possible to decide based on a scientific test, then the person should be able to choose. They already have issues that most of us don't have to deal with. I'll let them pick this one.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm afraid that doesn't clear it up.

Are you going off genitals, genes, gametes?

 

[The Atheist]

Nope. She is a woman, they even forced a test on her and guess what they didn't say she wasn't a woman

Guess what else? They didn't say Semenya was a woman, either.

Semenya is intersex. Neither one nor t'other.

 

[d4m10n]

Semenya is intersex. Neither one nor t'other.

Quite a complication if you're tryna create a men's/women's sport dichotomy.

 

[Meadmaker]

I'm afraid that doesn't clear it up.

Are you going off genitals, genes, gametes?

Sure it does. The answer is genitals. I can't have sex with genes or gametes.


And.....that doesn't answer every single case. That's why there was the rest of the post, about making other decisions based on biology, but if you have the genitals of one sex, you ought to be allowed to call yourself that sex, regardless of anything else. If you have genitals of one sex, and want to be called the other sex, now we have to debate, discuss, and make judgement calls.

 

[d4m10n]

Sure it does. The answer is genitals.

You're in favor of genital testing in high level sport?

 

[Belz...]

Nope. She is a woman, they even forced a test on her and guess what they didn't say she wasn't a woman. What they found is that she is a woman with a higher than average amount of testosterone, just like many other athletes have a biological advantage in say percentage of different types of muscles. And again this has nothing to do with trans people competing, this is about women with higher than average levels of testosterone having to use powerful and quite dangerous drugs if they want to compete against fellow women. At the top end of sport we are not talking about average people, we are talking about a miniscule sliver of people with often a "natural" biological advantage, what they have decided is that they are fine with all these other biological advantages a top athlete may have but not this particular one. It is also a perverse decision for an organisation that says it wants no drugs in the sport.

The solution clearly is a single category. Let everyone compete for the same prize. Of course, we all know where that leads.

If you want categories, you have to find a way to make it fair.

 

[Darat]

Guess what else? They didn't say Semenya was a woman, either.



Semenya is intersex. Neither one nor t'other.

You would need access to information that is not available to be able to say that.
And of course they allowed her to continue to compete in women only events. So the evidence we have is very much on the side that she is a woman.

 

[Darat]

The solution clearly is a single category. Let everyone compete for the same prize. Of course, we all know where that leads.

If you want categories, you have to find a way to make it fair.

What's wrong with the current categories? Men compete against men and women against women that seems to be how sport is generally played.

 

[Meadmaker]

You're in favor of genital testing in high level sport?

Sometimes, there are questions that are just straw men waiting to happen.

What I mean by that is that if I say yes, sure as shootin' some idiot will say that Meadmaker wants inspectors standing trackside to grope every competitor just to make sure they're in the right race. Or they'll say something equally stupid.

But in the end.....yes.

And someone else can draft the exact regulations that determine exactly who has to be verified, and when.


What I'm really saying is that if you have a woman's body, and by that I mean a woman's genitals, you should be able to compete as a woman. And of course you can't take drugs to make you more mannish, and …someone else can go into all the fine print to cover every single edge case. From what I understand, if you were in a room with Caster Semenya naked, you would say, "Wow. If she weren't naked, I would think she was a guy." And she didn't take any chemicals to make her the way she is. Let her compete with her natural body.

 

[The Atheist]

Quite a complication if you're tryna create a men's/women's sport dichotomy.

Not at all. They can start their own league, or fit within the confines of women's events as they now stand.

You would need access to information that is not available to be able to say that.
And of course they allowed her to continue to compete in women only events. So the evidence we have is very much on the side that she is a woman.

Nonsense.

Laurel Hubbard is competing in women's events and she is not a woman.

That's the whole point of the thread. Trans women - and intersex people - are not women. They're trans women or intersex. There's nothing wrong or bad about that - just like us hetero cisgender male types, they're not women. It's what Germaine Greer keeps getting labeled TERF for - nobody's allowed to say that any more, and I believe calling a trans woman a man is actually classed as illegal hate speech in England.

I know that woman was arrested for more than just calling the other a man, but the judgement is telling:

Judge Jason Coppel QC issued an interim injunction that bans her from posting any personal information about Hayden on social media, "referencing her as a man" or linking her to her "former male identity".

We can therefore be assured that if the arrested woman does it again, she will be arrested for contempt of court - and put in the cells immediately, for stating a biologically correct statement. The other woman still has 100% male genes and is a man from any factual perspective. Plenty of blokes had their nuts shot off or landmined away and it doesn't make them women.

However, I'm happy for them to assume any gender or pronoun they wish, but they are still not women. Just as you can't make a midget tall, you can't make a bloke a woman. She might look like one - hell, she might be better looking than a lot of women, she might have sex like a woman and be physically indistinguishable from a woman, but she doesn't have a uterus or female genes and is not a woman.

It grinds my gears that women, who as a species, are still fighting for equality in 2019, are supposed to roll over that now they're almost gaining parity, because a load of people who used to be blokes want in.

 

[qayak]

Guess what else? They didn't say Semenya was a woman, either.

Semenya is intersex. Neither one nor t'other.

Notice how the choice is always to compete in the category where you have a huge advantage and are assured victory and not in the category where you actually have to work your ass off to be competitive?

I wonder when we will see a case where an intersex person is in court arguing to be allowed to play against men? After all, they have a mix of both sexes, it seems 50% of the cases should be them wanting to break into male sports.

 

[Skeptic Tank]

Wokest take of all: abolish all female sports, they should be having babies.

 

[The Atheist]

Notice how the choice is always to compete in the category where you have a huge advantage and are assured victory and not in the category where you actually have to work your ass off to be competitive?

Even better, there seems to be a solid trend of trans athletes being former male athletes who didn't quite make the grade in male competition.

Wokest take of all: abolish all female sports, they should be having babies.

Much better plan!

In the immortal advice given to Jake the Muss' wife: "Keep your legs open and your mouth shut, girl."

 

[Mumbles]

Notice how the choice is always to compete in the category where you have a huge advantage and are assured victory and not in the category where you actually have to work your ass off to be competitive?

I wonder when we will see a case where an intersex person is in court arguing to be allowed to play against men? After all, they have a mix of both sexes, it seems 50% of the cases should be them wanting to break into male sports.

Given the complete lack of evidence that she is anything other than a cisgendered woman with unusual testosterone levels, all of this seems to be just stuff you made up. She still likely busts her behind training, keeps a strict diet, etc. same as her competitors.

Are their people who just break the M/F dichotomy outright - such that different "tests" will give entirely different results that may or may not even fit into the dichotomy ("This person has male genitalia, but XX chrososomes. This person has XXY chromosomes, and this third person has two fully functioning sets of reproductive organs.")? Yep. These cases are rather rare, though, while as far as I could find, high testosterone levels were found in roughly 14% of elite women athletes tested (and *low* testosterone levels in roughly 17% of elite male athletes tested).

 

[The Atheist]

Given the complete lack of evidence that she is anything other than a cisgendered woman with unusual testosterone levels...

Yeah, right.

Do you have eyes, maybe?

I'm happy to consider the evidence of Semenya's appearance: 1, 2, 3.

That might well be circumstantial, but a much better guide is the gender test that was undertaken. If Semenya was a natural female, it would have been logical to say so, and it wasn't said. Why would you not remove speculation if you could?

I don't know how reliable the Telegraph is, but they claim she has no female organs but does have testes, presumably leaked from her tests. She is basically a bloke with a vagina-like mechanism, and no cervix or uterus.

Semenya is intersex.

No shame in that, and quite unlucky for her, but the rules have been changed and the enormous majority of sport fans and cisgender female athletes are delighted.

Are their people who just break the M/F dichotomy outright ...

Which is why testosterone levels are ideal. No need to bother with asking questions about chromosomes or genitalia.

And let's be honest about Semenya's testosterone levels - they're not "high", they're triple the expected high level for women, putting her as a low outlier for men.