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Trans Women are not Women

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The Atheist said:
Sounds fine to me - means there will be no arguments next time you, me, and those three are at a party.
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Fair enough.... but where are all these trans parties that you're going to? I guess I'd still like to drop by and check the place out :D
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
Fair enough.... but where are all these trans parties that you're going to? I guess I'd still like to drop by and check the place out :D
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Haha! Let me know when you're headed down under - so to speak - and I'll set one up.

You do have to be a bit careful in NZ especially, because while there are transwomen and fa'afafine who look like the three we were admiring, we have quite a few fa'afafine (traditional Samoan trans) who look like rugby forwards, and in some cases are.

I knew a fa'afafine (not biblically) a few years back who became a golf partner for a year or so. During the day he was a 6' 4" monster who played loose forward for North Harbour. (Like one of your defensive ends, I think)

At night, she was Sheila, trans extraordinaire. I'm pretty sure I was the only person who knew both personae.

I was going to say more, then realised this is not Community!

A classic example of trans in sports, too. If he'd have gone to a full transition she would have been the best woman rugby player in the world and utterly dominated the game.
 
Plans to class female athletes such as Caster Semenya by their testosterone levels 'contravene human rights' and are 'humiliating', UN warns

Daily Mail said:
'Unnecessary, humiliating and harmful' plans to classify female athletes by their testosterone levels 'contravene international human rights' says the United Nations Human Rights Council. The plans are a bid by the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) to restrict levels of testosterone in female runners and could even see them competing alongside men.

The debate has been stoked by champion runner, Caster Semenya, whose case is at the forefront of the on-running saga. The two-time Olympic champion and three-time world champion, who has taken testosterone-regulating tablets in the past, said in June that the rule is 'unfair', adding: 'I just want to run naturally, the way I was born.'

Under the IAAF rules, female athletes like Semenya - because of naturally higher testosterone levels - would be forced to compete with men or change their event. The IAAF president, Lord Sebastian Coe, has said the new rules are a bid to 'level the playing field' for all female athletes.

The rules apply to female athletes competing between 400m and a mile, and their levels need to be kept at a certain amount 'for at least six months prior to competing,' report the BBC...
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...one-levels-contravene-human-rights-warns.html
 

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William Parcher said:
Plans to class female athletes such as Caster Semenya by their testosterone levels 'contravene human rights' and are 'humiliating', UN warns
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Not being a sports thread, I'll be slightly more subtle, so I don't leave a long row of asterisks.

That's what would happen if I yet again had to face the prospect of the "rights" of an infinitesimal few overruling the majority.
 
William Parcher said:
Plans to class female athletes such as Caster Semenya by their testosterone levels 'contravene human rights' and are 'humiliating', UN warns

The IAAF president, Lord Sebastian Coe, has said the new rules are a bid to 'level the playing field' for all female athletes.
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If 'leveling the playing field' means the contestants must all have equal innate abilities, why stop at testosterone? Longer legs, more muscle, less fat? You're out! More focused, better judgement, greater willpower? disqualified! (personality is >50% genetic). Accepting athletes who just happen to have good genes is totally unfair to all the other women who don't.

Or is there some other reason for singling out testosterone levels from all the other biological differences between contestants? Could it be 'because they're not really women'? No wonder the UN calls it 'humiliating'.
 
The Atheist said:
Not being a sports thread, I'll be slightly more subtle, so I don't leave a long row of asterisks.

That's what would happen if I yet again had to face the prospect of the "rights" of an infinitesimal few overruling the majority.
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I agree. In a just world the majority would have all the rights and the few none. Before WWII Jews were an infinitesimal 0.75% of the German population. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable for the majority to deny them the "right" to exist.
 
theprestige said:
Caster Semenya seems like an edge case that has no relevance to this discussion.
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I disagree.

The LGBTQIA++FWZ36 group includes them in the non-binary category, and they have more in common with transgender than with biological males & females.

And take a look at Semenya - that's a dude masquerading as a woman. She has male testosterone levels, which clearly means she has male genitalia, most likely internally. I'd be betting that while she has a vagina-like mechanism, she doesn't have ovaries or a uterus, so that would make her a bloke.

She identifies as female? Fine - be within testosterone limits for women.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
I agree. In a just world the majority would have all the rights and the few none. Before WWII Jews were an infinitesimal 0.75% of the German population. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable for the majority to deny them the "right" to exist.
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How much of the population do monarchies make up? Nothing wrong with them running the world then.

The minority needs protection but that does not mean the entire ready of the world has to do whatever they say.

That is "tiny guy at the bar" logic. "I'm so fragile you can't fight back without looking like an *******" , problem being there is a difference between looking like an ******* and being one. And in this case appearances can be deceiving.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
I agree. In a just world the majority would have all the rights and the few none. Before WWII Jews were an infinitesimal 0.75% of the German population. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable for the majority to deny them the "right" to exist.
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Really? Godwinning the thread is the best argument you can make? That's just... sad.

There really is no equivalence here. Participating in any specific sporting league is not a fundamental right. It is not comparable in any way to the right to life. If you think no discrimination is permissible in sports, then be honest and advocate for the abolishment of separate women's sports. If you think some discrimination is permissible, then you have to form a coherent argument for why this specific discrimination is not permissible when others are. And such an argument won't have anything to do with Nazis, because (and I know this might come as a shock to you) this situation doesn't resemble that one in any meaningful way.
 
Roger Ramjets said:
I agree. In a just world the majority would have all the rights and the few none. Before WWII Jews were an infinitesimal 0.75% of the German population. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable for the majority to deny them the "right" to exist.
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A Holocaust analogy. Very original and totally appropriate. Never seen that before.
 
Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.

BBC News said:
The Court of Arbitration for Sport (Cas) rejected the South African's challenge against the IAAF's new rules.

But Cas said it had "serious concerns as to the future practical application" of the regulations.

Olympic 800m champion Semenya, 28, said in response to the ruling that the IAAF "have always targeted me specifically".

"For a decade the IAAF has tried to slow me down, but this has actually made me stronger. The decision of Cas will not hold me back," the statement continued.

"I will once again rise above and continue to inspire young women and athletes in South Africa and around the world."

Previously, she had said that she wanted to "run naturally, the way I was born".

Now she - and other athletes with differences of sexual development (DSD) - must either take medication in order to compete in track events from 400m to the mile, or change to another distance.

Cas found that the rules for athletes with DSD were discriminatory - but that the discrimination was "necessary, reasonable and proportionate" to protect "the integrity of female athletics"...
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https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/48102479
 
Roger Ramjets said:
I agree. In a just world the majority would have all the rights and the few none. Before WWII Jews were an infinitesimal 0.75% of the German population. Therefore it was perfectly acceptable for the majority to deny them the "right" to exist.
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The situation is more akin to royals.

At spoke point someone decided a certain group should have more rights than others. Now people are getting angry.

Historically a minority flexing power over the majority ends one way, and it isn't pretty.

But I'm sure this time will be different, so we should continue to tell people 99 per cent of them have to obey the feelings of a fraction of a percent.
 
Have you seen Joe Rogan interviewing Adam Conover on the subject? It's amazing how Adam shot himself in the foot on this one. Everyone's calling this interview "Adam Ruins his Credibility"

 
I really disagree with this decision, they are saying that she must take very powerful drugs to compete. Are they happy to pay for her medical bills from any side effects of these powerful drugs? By the way with her this decision is not about trans women, it is about women who have higher than average for women testosterone levels in their blood. I do hope they will enforce this consistently, so we shall see taller than average men and shorter than average men not being allowed to compete in races unless their height is adjusted to be the average for men. Can't have people using their natural biological gifts to unfair advantage.
 
William Parcher said:
Caster Semenya has lost a landmark case against athletics' governing body meaning it will be allowed to restrict testosterone levels in female runners.
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Finally, the sport court makes sense.

Darat said:
Can't have people using their natural biological gifts to unfair advantage.
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Nope, it isn't that at all.

The LGBTQIAFWZP3+*^Z group has been crying for years about genders & non-binary genders, demanding that the intersex group not be classed as either male or female, but a group on their own.

Now, that's the legal position, which should suit Semenya fine, "they" is not a woman and has never been one.

They can either compete against other intersex people - which includes all 3 medallists at the last Olympic Women's 800m - or they can take drugs to fit the profile allowed for women.

Finally the insanity of making rules for the one rather than the many, has prevailed.

Semenya is, of course, quite welcome to compete against blokes without needing to take drugs.

The alternative to the decision would be allowing women to take testosterone to get up to Semeya's level.
 
Quick question: has there been any studies done which explore the consequences of other biological "advantages" (i.e., height, weight, limb length, etc.) in comparison with testosterone levels? And more specifically, is this the reason that this governing body made this decision for these races only (specifically between 400m and the mile)?

This is not a loaded question. I really don't know how to feel about this. If I remember her case prior to this coming up, she took sex-testing which was never really disclosed but was hinted at showing intersex characteristics. I don't want women competing with men for many of the reasons stated previously, but this may be a fringe case that, when making decisions in the future, I hope we don't hang our hats on.

The privacy concerns for the athlete are important to consider, but I'm not sure where to go from here if we can't test and then reveal the outcome of the test. A suspension of the athlete after sex-testing would likely result in the assumption from the general public and it seems like it would be up to the athlete whether or not they wanted to release the information to refute the governing body and/or protect their public persona. In other words, would Semenya be better off releasing the full records showing she is in fact a female with just higher than average testosterone or continuing the path she has taken? How would members here feel about this?
 
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