Notre-Dame de Paris - cathedral on fire!

[Worm]

I am confused

So if it is state owned then presumably they brought it off the Church?

Or did the state just sign up on all the upkeep?

And of all places that could cover insuring the thing you would think Paris would be up there

From Wiki:

Under the 1905 law on the separation of Church and State, Notre-Dame de Paris is one of 70 churches in Paris built before that year which are owned by the French state. While the building itself is owned by the state, the Catholic Church is the designated beneficiary, having the exclusive right to use it for religious purposes in perpetuity. The archdiocese is responsible for paying the employees, for security, heating and cleaning, and for ensuring that the cathedral is open free to visitors. The archdiocese does not receive subsidies from the French state.

Not totally clear

 

[erwinl]

I am confused

So if it is state owned then presumably they brought it off the Church?

Or did the state just sign up on all the upkeep?

And of all places that could cover insuring the thing you would think Paris would be up there

The 1905 law of seperation of the churches and the state stopped French state subsidizing of religious groups, but also stated that churches and cathedrals were property of the state (the cathedrals) or local overnments (rest of the churches). From that moment on the State took care of upkeeping.
I don't know about other countries, but in my country, everything owned by the state is uninsured (there may be exceptions). I think it is the same in France.
Which is logical, because it solves the problem of ownership of the insured thing if a insurance company would declare it 'damaged beyond economic repair' and thus would become owner of the insured thing.
As the state has more money than ordinary insurance companies (and has the menas to obtain more with special taxes), the present way would take care that the ownership of the state is not in doubt.

Besides. Some things just can't be insured.
Military vehicles for instance.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[Information Analyst]

Don't get whole donation thing

Presumably there are tax breaks for big donors.

So why aren't these buildings insured anyway? It is relatively old, but she is hardly like trying to get insurance for the pyramids or Stonehenge

Some things can actually be too valuable to insure in full. There are probably liability issues related to the actual cause of the fire, which has obviously not yet been determined. ETA: Situation obviously even more murky in light of subsequent posts.

Putting aside the church being loaded enough to pay for the restoration anyway

That doesn't necessarily mean that they have huge cash reserves to draw on. Much of the RC's "wealth" will be in the form of church real estate and artefacts. Another example would be the Church of England, which is worth around £5 billion, but individual churches barely break even from one year to the next. If Westminster Abbey suffered the same fate as Notre Dame, it's doubtful that the CoE alone could stump up the cost of restoration.

 

[erwinl]

I keep looking at the photos and trying to imagine how to safely dismantle that huge stack of damaged scaffolding. CD?

Yes.

That will be some fine task to be told to do. 'See those damaged scaffolding over there? Please remove it, so we can start rebuilding the cathedral. And try not to damage too much more of the cathedral, would you? And if you manage not to get injured by it, it would be lovely. Now start!'

 

[wobs]

Not enough at the size and configuration needed.
Plus if they cut the tree now it has to season.
In the past Oak forest was a lot more prevelant, a lot of it went in the 'great age of sail' to build ships frames.
Oak used to be cultivated as it became a strategic resource in the 18th and 19th centuries. (at least in Britain)

Wouldn't they use green oak?
I have read that French oak specialists have some, so the claim that there isn't enough maybe hyperbole. Maybe.

 

[Dave Rogers]

I don't know about other countries, but in my country, everything owned by the state is uninsured (there may be exceptions). I think it is the same in France.
Which is logical, because it solves the problem of ownership of the insured thing if a insurance company would declare it 'damaged beyond economic repair' and thus would become owner of the insured thing.

It's also, in cases where there are enough instances of the thing owned, inevitably cheaper. Insurance is a way of managing the statistical variations in risk caused by owning relatively few of the item insured, but large quantities result in regression toward the mean. A classic example is large vehicle fleets; the annual rate of collisions, breakdowns and thefts is so close to the statistically expected rate that it's cheaper just to pay the annual repair and replacement bills than to pay a premium to an insurance company equal to the same amount plus administrative costs and profit margin.

Of course, there may not be enough cathedrals to justify the same argument...

Dave

 

[quadraginta]

I'm sorry if I seem really out of my element, as I pretty much only know Christianity and Catholicism through movies and tv, but I have to ask: Was child molestation ever a major tenant of those religions? If not, then is it not possible to seperate the art from the artist, so to speak?

Well, there is one of your major problems right there..........

Dependins on movies and tv as your source of information on ANYTHING is a guarantee you are going to be ignorant on the subject.

Maybe you should dial it back a bit, dud,

The poster was making it clear that they already didn't think movies and tv were a reliable source, and was asking for help.

Lambasting them for their future ignorance after they specifically discard the sources you are criticizing isn't going to do much to alleviate their ignorance either.

Might just stop them from looking for other resources, though. Obviously you aren't going to be any help to them.

 

[quadraginta]

I keep looking at the photos and trying to imagine how to safely dismantle that huge stack of damaged scaffolding. CD?

More scaffolding?

 

[8enotto]

The old cathedral in the center of the city of Mexico I'd built on fill over the bases if dismantled Aztec structures. As the water table in the earth lowers under it the building sinks slowly but unevenly where structural areas are not.

The government of Mexico has spent ungodly amounts of money studying and stabilizing the structure since the 1950's.
And now the engineers have said it has moved far less and even been fixed in areas. Amazing for a mega ton of stone blocks.

It was the first to be repaired after the quakes and is open to to public again.
In major public monuments no amount of money is too much to keep them around. Any cost to get a pint of period correct 1500's paint to repair a humidity damaged alter is justified. Just don't tell anyone the cost before showing the results.

The place is beautiful. The antiquity is apparent and nothing looks like it was recently repaired. The efforts are giving desired results.

The French feel the same of their monuments. It HAS to be rebuilt at any cost. One they themselves will donate money to cover.

 

[Bob001]

Interesting article on the design and construction of cathedrals and the problems at Notre Dame.

The iconic church, initially constructed in the 12th and 13th centuries, has heavy stone exterior walls, a roof made of old oak and, below that, a cavernous exterior full of oxygen that feeds flames.

Indeed, Notre Dame was intentionally designed this way. The roof was built of wood so that if it caught fire, it could burn away, but the walls and other structures made of stone wouldn’t burn down. One big advantage of this architectural feature: The fire would be contained by the stone exterior and not put the rest of the city at risk.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...ake-long-time-rebuild/?utm_term=.89a36be23e6c

 

[Andy_Ross]

Wouldn't they use green oak?
I have read that French oak specialists have some, so the claim that there isn't enough maybe hyperbole. Maybe.

Green for some applications yes.

 

[William Parcher]

a cavernous exterior full of oxygen that feeds flames.

Cavernous exterior? Is that exterior also called Paris?

 

[Steve]

Cavernous exterior? Is that exterior also called Paris?

Nailed it!

 

[Andy_Ross]

Trump Tweets

Just had a wonderful conversation with @Pontifex Francis offering condolences from the People of the United States for the horrible and destructive fire at Notre Dame Cathedral. I offered the help of our great experts on renovation and construction as I did....

 

[TragicMonkey]

.....America being famous for its twelfth century Gothic architecture.

 

[Castro]

Nailed it!

Paris is full of many things but oxygen is certainly not the first one that comes to (my) mind.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Trump Tweets

....in my conversation yesterday with President @EmmanuelMacron of France. I also wished both Pope Francis and President Macron a very Happy Easter!

 

[Andy_Ross]

How about helping the 3 churches that burnt down in Louisiana?

 

[dudalb]

I watched the 1939 movie yesterday, with Charles Laughton and the incredibly pretty Maureen O'Hara [emoji14]

That's overall the best version of the Hugo novel;but it is one of the most filmed novels in history.
The Silent Version with Lon Chaney is worth watching also;the less said about the Disney version the better.

 

[dudalb]

How about helping the 3 churches that burnt down in Louisiana?

Not against helping them, but they are not cultural landmarks the way that Notre Dame is.