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Mueller Investigation pt5

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Belz... said:
I'm not saying he's not. I'd just like to have a solid source.



"No you!" Very mature. :rolleyes:

But that isn't my question. I'm asking what measures exist to FORCE these people to comply.
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Congress has three formal methods by which it can combat non-compliance with a duly issued subpoena. Each of these methods invokes the authority of a separate branch of government. First, the long dormant inherent contempt power permits Congress to rely on its own constitutional authority to detain and imprison a contemnor until the individual complies with congressional demands. Second, the criminal contempt statute permits Congress to certify a contempt citation to the executive branch for the criminal prosecution of the contemnor. Finally, Congress may rely on the judicial branch to enforce a congressional subpoena. Under this procedure, Congress may seek a civil judgment from a federal court declaring that the individual in question is legally obligated to comply with the congressional subpoena.
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Here's an excerpt from an article that discusses the issue more deeply.

https://www.lawfareblog.com/congres...ve-privilege-coming-showdown-between-branches
 
Belz... said:
...
"No you!" Very mature. :rolleyes:

But that isn't my question. I'm asking what measures exist to FORCE these people to comply.
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Come on Belz, at least put a minor effort into having a discussion.

There is the DoJ, the IRS, the FBI, the federal courts, the Congress, the OIG, the Trump admin which is pretty slim these days...

Just why are you refusing to acknowledge, let alone discuss the fact Trump and Barr are not in absolute control?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Come on Belz, at least put a minor effort into having a discussion.

There is the DoJ, the IRS, the FBI, the federal courts, the Congress, the OIG, the Trump admin which is pretty slim these days...

Just why are you refusing to acknowledge, let alone discuss the fact Trump and Barr are not in absolute control?
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It is a valid question. When presented with court documents on their desk and Trump yelling at them over speaker phone, what will the living, breathing, socially malleable human beings put in the situation of choosing which way to go actually end up doing.

If they refuse to comply, then its the same exact question again when someone is handed court orders to enforce the previously flouted court orders.

It's the same principle that is in effect in a "velvet revolution", will the security services crack down or stay in their barracks? Will the state media stay compliant or go rogue and show the truth on the streets? Will the cabinet line up and make patriotic speeches or resign and flee? Will the high court rule this way or that? Real power rests on institutional pillars that support it, if those pillars are removed (ideally co-opted rather than destroyed), power stands there shouting orders while everyone stares at it with quizzical expressions like the guy on the corner raving about judgment day.
 
newyorkguy said:
The FBI describes defendant Aleksey Potemkin as a native born 36-year-old Russian male. He is an officer in the Russian Federation's Main Intelligence Directorate of the General Staff (GRU) and is currently believed to be in Moscow..
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For those who didn't get the reference:

wikipedia said:
[Grigory Potemkin's] rule in the south is associated with the "Potemkin village", a ruse involving the construction of painted façades to mimic real villages, full of happy, well-fed people, for visiting officials to see.
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Come on Belz, at least put a minor effort into having a discussion.
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That was my point to you. I asked a question, which you didn't answer. I reiterated, and you replied with the thing that caused me to ask the question in the first place. When I pointed out that you were missing the point I was trying to get, you just flipped it back on me. In other words you have not contributed to the discussion in any way. It's a bit rich that you are now asking ME to do that.

Just why are you refusing to acknowledge, let alone discuss the fact Trump and Barr are not in absolute control?
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What? When did I say or imply that they are? I asked, VERY CLEARLY, what can congress of the court do if the people they subpoena or order refuse to comply. What are the recourses that SCOTUS and Congress have for force the issue? It's a very simple question, and so far other posters have actually made efforts to answer it.
 
There is information about the Russian hacking garnered from pro-democracy Russian hackers. From Buzz Feed:
The bizarre hive of social media activity appears to be part of a two-pronged Kremlin campaign to claim control over the internet, launching a million-dollar army of trolls to mold American public opinion as it cracks down on internet freedom at home.

"Foreign media are currently actively forming a negative image of the Russian Federation in the eyes of the global community," one of the project's team members, Svetlana Boiko, wrote in a strategy document. "Additionally, the discussions formed by comments to those articles are also negative in tone. Like any brand formed by popular opinion, Russia has its supporters ('brand advocates') and its opponents. The main problem is that in the foreign internet community, the ratio of supporters and opponents of Russia is about 20/80 respectively." Link
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It's still going on. This is from the webzine Foreign Policy:
Hacked and leaked Russian materials have in recent years exposed some of its government’s most controversial policies, including documenting Moscow’s control over separatists operating in eastern Ukraine, attempts by the Kremlin to influence the Russian media, and the existence of a paid army of pro-President Vladimir Putin bloggers working for the now-infamous Internet Research Agency. Link
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There was another big leak this past January. From Al Jazeera.
Investigative journalist Roman Dobrokhotov told Al Jazeera that the most interesting hacks were of the Russian Presidential Administration, which "added to the transparency of the Russian government system." He said: "We found all the structure, how the government controls media in Russia, how they spread their messages through members of parliament and loyal TV channels or newspapers. How they start criminal investigations against [the] opposition or journalists without any real basis." Link
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The context is, how dangerous and malicious the Russian government can be, and that therefore the Russian involvement in the 2016 campaign had to be investigated. For Trump not to know this, or worse, refuse to acknowledge it for political reasons, is completely irresponsible. To have compounded it by repeatedly calling the Mueller investigation a witch hunt, is recklessly irresponsible.

I look forward to joining many millions of my fellow Americans on 11/3/2020 and sending the following message to The Dunce: You're fired! ;)
 
Belz... said:
That was my point to you. I asked a question, which you didn't answer. I reiterated, and you replied with the thing that caused me to ask the question in the first place. When I pointed out that you were missing the point I was trying to get, you just flipped it back on me. In other words you have not contributed to the discussion in any way. It's a bit rich that you are now asking ME to do that.

What? When did I say or imply that they are? I asked, VERY CLEARLY, what can congress of the court do if the people they subpoena or order refuse to comply. What are the recourses that SCOTUS and Congress have for force the issue? It's a very simple question, and so far other posters have actually made efforts to answer it.
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And I VERY CLEARLY answered. Your snark is uncalled for because I didn't realize you were asking an unrealistic hypothetical. It assumes that no one would go against Barr. Why on Earth would that be the case? The AG isn't even as high as the POTUS which the Congress is equal to.
 
Last July. while still Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan said, "Russia...remains hostile to our most basic values and ideals." The problem is, so is Donald Trump.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Your snark is uncalled for because I didn't realize you were asking an unrealistic hypothetical.
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What's unrealistic about it? Trump and his people have a long history of ignoring the law and trying to cheat their way through life. There'd be nothing surprising about them refusing to obey a congressional or court order if they thought they could away with it. So my question is: could they get away with it, or is there a mechanism to force them to comply?

Are you going to answer the question at some point?
 
Belz... said:
What's unrealistic about it? Trump and his people have a long history of ignoring the law and trying to cheat their way through life. There'd be nothing surprising about them refusing to obey a congressional or court order if they thought they could away with it. So my question is: could they get away with it, or is there a mechanism to force them to comply?

Are you going to answer the question at some point?
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:rolleyes:

Last time: the answer is they can ask someone else that has possession of the report.

Your hypothetical is unrealistic. But if we ignore that, what you are really asking is what happens if there is a Constitutional Crisis.

538: The 4 Types Of Constitutional Crises - And which ones are most likely to come up during Trump’s presidency.
4. Institutions themselves fail.
The Constitution’s system of checks and balances sets the various branches against each other for the laudable purpose of constraining tyranny. However, due to partisan polarization, individual corruption, or any number of other reasons, sometimes the political institutions in these arrangements fail, sending the governmental system into a crisis. This was the type of constitutional crisis commentators were seemingly referring to in describing reports that Customs and Border Protection agents (members of the executive branch) weren’t following orders from the judicial branch.
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An example:
Had Nixon ignored the Supreme Court ruling ordering him to turn over tapes of conversations he had recorded in the Oval Office, that would have been a huge crisis of this genre. But he didn’t.
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But possession of the tapes was confined to the White House, essentially.

In the case of the Mueller report, should the courts tell the FBI or the special council to hand it over, it is unrealistic to believe they would be loyal to Trump and not to the Constitution.
 
I am going to go out on a limb about the release of the report.
Those who like Trump will claim it exonerates him. Those who don’t like Trump will say it shows he is guilty of both collusion and obstruction but Barr redacted the most damming parts that proved his guilt beyond doubt.
 
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