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A "Before" the Big Bang?

TobiasTheCommie said:
Please understand, that balloon is an analogy, there is no inside or outside, only the surface.

It is just a picture to descripe the expansion of our universe. And as analogies go, it isn't perfect.
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Are you saying "something" is not getting displaced in order to allow the balloon to expand? Doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me, unless it were a hologram or something.
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, but why is the balloon expanding in the first place? Do you think it could have something to do with the expansion of the volume of air on the inside, versus the displacement of the air on the outside? This tells me that something has changed on both the inside as well as outside of the balloon, regardless of the surface area (of both surfaces of the balloon and the air), which is directly proportional to this expansion/displacement "thingee."
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Your still stuck thinking in three dimensions. Remember the analogy assumes that you ignore the inside and outside area of the balloon. This why analogies are bad. They sometime do more harm than good. But sometimes they are a necessary evil other wise the mathmatically challenged, like me, are hopelessly lost.

The expansion may possibly be extra-dimentional.
 
Flatland fans, check these out:

The Annotated Flatland This one is Ian Stewart expanding on everything in the original. It's a great read. If you haven't already read Flatland and can find this one in your library, and you're a bit of a geek, go for it. If you have already read Flatland, same applies.

Sphereland: A Fantasy About Curved Spaces & an Expanding Universe A sequel to Flatland, written in 1965 by Dionys Burger. I've got the Barnes and Noble 1983 edition of this book, that I found at a garage sale for a buck. :) A worthy sequel, develops the concepts futher.

Flatterland, Like Flatland Only More So Ian Stewart's more recent sequel to Flatland. Despite the blurb saying it's a completely accessible guide to some of the trickiest concepts in contemporary mathematics, Iacchus would best be served by leaving this till after a complete understanding of the concepts in the others. I know I did...
 
Iacchus said:
Yeah, but you forgot about the part that you stick your blowhole up to. ;)
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Disregard that bit. We're using the balloon as an analogy for the expansion of the universe, and there's no reliable evidence that there is some guy blowing air into the universe.
 
Iacchus said:
What you're speaking of here is an imaginary line, where two surfaces meet ... the surface of the balloon itself and the air that surrounds it.
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Well, it's a two dimensional surface where two volumes meet, rather than a one-dimensional line, but you seem to be getting the idea. What we are talking about in this analogy is an imaginary surface. It's two-dimensional, and therefore has no thickness.

So, again, does this two-dimensional surface have an edge (if you're hung up over the bit you blow into, just consider the balloon as a perfect sphere)?

As it expands, does it expand into a surrounding two-dimensional surface?
 
Mojo said:
Well, it's a two dimensional surface where two volumes meet, rather than a one-dimensional line, but you seem to be getting the idea. What we are talking about in this analogy is an imaginary surface. It's two-dimensional, and therefore has no thickness.

So, again, does this two-dimensional surface have an edge (if you're hung up over the bit you blow into, just consider the balloon as a perfect sphere)?

As it expands, does it expand into a surrounding two-dimensional surface?
Click to expand...

One would have to try hard not to understand what you're explaining. Your balloon analogy is pretty clear.
 
Mojo said:
Well, it's a two dimensional surface where two volumes meet, rather than a one-dimensional line, but you seem to be getting the idea. What we are talking about in this analogy is an imaginary surface. It's two-dimensional, and therefore has no thickness.
Click to expand...
Yes, I believe I mentioned this in the other thread.

So, again, does this two-dimensional surface have an edge (if you're hung up over the bit you blow into, just consider the balloon as a perfect sphere)?
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Not if it's imaginary. ;)

As it expands, does it expand into a surrounding two-dimensional surface?
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Again, not if it's imaginary.
 
Mojo said:
OK, to stop you getting hung up on the word "imaginary," think about the two-dimensional surface that forms the surface of a soccer ball. Does that have an edge?
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Bu-u-u-u-ut Moooooooojooooooo, what about all those paaaaaaaaanels?
 
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