Status
Not open for further replies.
Due to FBI rules that they cannot comment on ongoing cases, or evidence that might affect ongoing cases, he may have been unable to include incriminating evidence in his report.

That sounds like complete nonsense. The report isn't public. It never needs to be public. Any evidence that it contains which should not be released to the public can be redacted if and when any of the report is released to the public. You're simply making up rules that don't actually exist.

I wonder if any of the really juicy Mueller stuff is going to turn up in state-based cases against Trump instead.

Conceivably, but there's no reason that wouldn't still be contained within his report.
 
I don't think he is out of the woods just yet. Even Barr had to concede that Trump was not exonerated on obstruction of justice. Should one or more such incidents be charged and made to stick, Trump is outta there. On a rail.

Maybe not.

But the role of the Special Council has been further reduced, with little to no power to going after members of the Administration without DOJ consent.
By the same standard, Ken Starr wouldn't have be able to find out anything in the case of Clinton.
 
Here's another thing.



If there was no collusion with the Russian government, why on earth did everyone in Trump's orbit, including Trump himself, tell so many lies about their contacts with Russia?



If they weren't covering up election fixing, what they hell were they covering up?



Could it be crimes, such as money laundering for Russian banks?



Could it be the fact (and it IS a fact) that Trump was using the office of the presidency to personally enrich himself?



Could it be the fact (and it IS a fact) that members of the Trump orbit were getting big, illicit payments from Russians (Manafort, Flynn etc)



What were they lying about?
Just Trump being Trump. Why does everyone make such a big deal of it? It's only white collar crime. Everyone knows that's not real crime.
 
No, I don't agree.

The exact situation is that Mueller didn't turn up evidence, or sufficient evidence, of collusion at that meeting that was actionable. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. As I was being sarcastic, they weren't there to talk about orphans, which was the bull-**** story about the meeting Trump concocted on AF1 later on.

Trump doesn't keep records or recordings - he's notorious for it. E.g. the "private" meetings with Putin.

I think no evidence to unearth is a simpler explanation than evidence too hard to find.
 
Just Trump being Trump. Why does everyone make such a big deal of it? It's only white collar crime. Everyone knows that's not real crime.

I believe the fashionable term is "process crime". It is republican speech for " crimes that don't matter because republicans committed them".
 
Dolt 45: The man's both a malignant narcissist and a fool. I said at the start that it was quite possible that he fired Comey simply because he was angry that anyone wouldn't pledge loyalty to him. Remember, this is the same clown that just declared his Muslim ban out of the blue, and then fired Yates when she wouldn't defend his plainly unconstitutional statute that he failed to consult her on. His entire administration has been nothing but a mess.

The rest: Who knows? These are all either similarly ignorant/evil/corrupt, but without the likely mental decline. Many of them are obvious criminals who collaborated against the US, or did something else that'd make them panic. But it's a collection of grifters and bigots in any event.
I agree.

Always consider it could be stupidity before conspiracy. In this case the pattern of stupidity and impulsiveness is well established.
 
I don't think he is out of the woods just yet. Even Barr had to concede that Trump was not exonerated on obstruction of justice.

Not quite. Barr said two things in this regard. First, he said that Mueller never came to a decision about whether or not Trump obstructed justice ("The Special Counsel states that “while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.”"). That matches up with your post, but it's not Barr's final word on the matter. He also said:

Over the course of the investigation, the Special Counsel’s office engaged in discussions with certain Department officials regarding many of the legal and factual matters at issue in the Special Counsel’s obstruction investigation. After reviewing the Special Counsel’s final report on these issues; consulting with Department officials, including the Office of Legal Counsel; and applying the principles of federal prosecution that guide our charging decisions, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein and I have concluded that the evidence developed during the Special Counsel’s investigation is not sufficient to establish that the President committed an obstruction-of-justice offense. Our determination was made without regard to, and is not based on, the constitutional considerations that surround the indictment and criminal prosecution of a sitting president. 2

FN2 See A Sitting President’s Amenability to Indictment and Criminal Prosecution, 24 Op. O.L.C. 222 (2000).

In making this determination, we noted that the Special Counsel recognized that “the evidence does not establish that the President was involved in an underlying crime related to Russian election interference,” and that, while not determinative, the absence of such evidence bears upon the President’s intent with respect to obstruction. Generally speaking, to obtain and sustain an obstruction conviction, the government would need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that a person, acting with corrupt intent, engaged in obstructive conduct with a sufficient nexus to a pending or contemplated proceeding. In cataloguing the President’s actions, many of which took place in public view, the report identifies no actions that, in our judgment, constitute obstructive conduct, had a nexus to a pending or contemplated proceeding, and were done with corrupt intent, each of which, under the Department’s principles of federal prosecution guiding charging decisions, would need to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt to establish an obstruction-of justice offense.

In other words, while Mueller may have been unwilling to clear Trump of obstruction accusations, Barr and Rosenstein are doing so.
 
And what, exactly, do you think Trump is getting away with?

Obstruction.
I think it very dangerous not to err on the side of caution when it comes to Obstruction.
Barr (and Mueller) went the other way, which will be used by future meddlers as cover for their obstruction.

Basically, it's another case where Trump managed to shift the Overton window.
 
Unbelievably, this leads to a silver lining to today's dark cloud. The extent that trumpistas accept the Mueller report is the extent to which they cannot claim that the deep state fudged the 2020 elections.
If only reality and facts mattered.

They will still claim it. Trump will still claim it.
 
And what, exactly, do you think Trump is getting away with?
Blatant dishonesty, corruption, wasting taxpayer money playing golf, taking credit for things he didn't accomplish, running up the deficit enormously (with the help of the GOP) among other things.
 
Not quite. Barr said two things in this regard. First, he said that Mueller never came to a decision about whether or not Trump obstructed justice ("The Special Counsel states that “while this report does not conclude that the President committed a crime, it also does not exonerate him.”"). That matches up with your post, but it's not Barr's final word on the matter. He also said:

In other words, while Mueller may have been unwilling to clear Trump of obstruction accusations, Barr and Rosenstein are doing so.

This might be true, but Barr's statement implies that a person can only be guilty of obstruction of justice if they are acting to impede an investigation into a crime that they may have committed as opposed to impeding an investigation into a crime that someone else may have committed. I do not believe that this is actually true.
 
For those who oppose Trump's policies and, more importantly, his anti-democratic leanings, Barr's summary of Mueller's report is horrible news. I nearly got a return of the pit-of-my-stomach feeling I had when Trump won on election night after I had 5 minutes to process Barr's letter.

Barr's letter will be used to cast doubt on all the other investigations, and such doubt has important influence on politics and the juries who would ultimately decide about those investigations.

It will even negatively influence any Congressional investigation into whether Barr's summary, and Barr's brief stewardship of the DOJ while Mueller was finishing up, was proper.

Only in the amazing circumstance that Trump is as innocent as the freshly-driven snow would today not be a catastrophe for regaining control of our democracy. Good luck, we're gonna need it.

that's my biggest fear at the moment. Perception is reality. Trump defenders are going to use this as a huge talking point.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom