Anti-Muslim Terrorist Attack in... NZ?

[Samson]

Probably been mentioned, but the have banned his manifesto now.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nati...sque-shootings-manifesto-deemed-objectionable

Kind of getting embarrassing

Embarrassing?
Could you expand, I am against this kind of censorship on principle. Writing the manifesto may be a crime, but if it is a crime to be prosecuted we can only have a secret trial if it is a crime to read it. This is completely opposed to the principle of open justice, though many aspects of judicial process are behind closed doors, in chambers.

 

[smartcooky]

How disingenuous.

Why did you ignore the actual position of MRU on the subject?
From the article you quoted,

The tragic event that occurred in Christchurch less than a week ago has had a large impact on many members in our community. We made this decision in light of that impact and we would absolutely have the speaker come to our campus at another time."​

Oh, disingenuousness is "Bigotry 101" for these types of people... quote the headline, ignore the context and the content.

 

[smartcooky]

The rules don't need to be mended, but maybe it's time for the very outspoken anti-Muslims in this forum to recognize that Islam isn't very special in any respect. It's a religion, just like Christianity or Judaism. Like OT Christians, the anti-Muslims seem to think that Islam isn't just like any other religion. It's the wrong religion. That's the distinction that most of us argue against.

Correct!

Are you implying that criticizing terror committed by Muslim extremists isn't allowed? Are you one of the guys who can't distinguish between Muslim extremists and ordinary Muslims and therefore get upset whenever somebody points out the difference?

He is.

For these people Islam and terrorism are synonymous with each other, while white supremacists shooting up a place of worship is just a few good 'ol boys having a bit of fun.

Obvious bigotry is obvious!

 

[cullennz]

Embarrassing?
Could you expand, I am against this kind of censorship on principle. Writing the manifesto may be a crime, but if it is a crime to be prosecuted we can only have a secret trial if it is a crime to read it. This is completely opposed to the principle of open justice, though many aspects of judicial process are behind closed doors, in chambers.

Embarrassing they have knee jerkingly banned anyone looking at it.

And actually quite patronising that the govt thinks kiwis are going to turn into gun wielding killers from reading the ramblings of a trolling nutter

 

[Samson]

Embarrassing they have knee jerkingly banned anyone looking at it.

And actually quite patronising that the govt thinks kiwis are going to turn into gun wielding killers from reading the ramblings of a trolling nutter

Ok I totally agree.
In fact I think it should be part of the Australian and New Zealand public record.
Sticks and stoneswill break my bones ..................guns
But words can never hurt me.

The latter is false, words do egregious hurt in a one on one experience, but in the context of this perpetrator it is disgraceful that the censor will play god.
He is not talking to a spouse, a child, a family member, he is talking in a style we should be able to analyse so we better understand.

 

[Giz]

Embarrassing they have knee jerkingly banned anyone looking at it.

And actually quite patronising that the govt thinks kiwis are going to turn into gun wielding killers from reading the ramblings of a trolling nutter

Indeed. There are lots of deplorable manifestos (mein kampf , mao’s little red book, etc) and a healthy, free, adult society has no problem confronting the horrible ideas with reason, they don’t resort to childish censorship.

(FWIW, it seems like the epitome of knee jerk to ban this manifesto whilst permitting mein kampf to be sold.)

 

[Stout]

The rules don't need to be mended, but maybe it's time for the very outspoken anti-Muslims in this forum to recognize that Islam isn't very special in any respect. It's a religion, just like Christianity or Judaism. Like OT Christians, the anti-Muslims seem to think that Islam isn't just like any other religion. It's the wrong religion. That's the distinction that most of us argue against.




Are you implying that criticizing terror committed by Muslim extremists isn't allowed? Are you one of the guys who can't distinguish between Muslim extremists and ordinary Muslims and therefore get upset whenever somebody points out the difference?

But that's where you're wrong. Islam is special, it's the most special religion in the world that's managed to get itself classified as a race. It's the religion where good people will throw their western progressive values right under the bus in order to defend. It's the religion where people puff themselves up to proudly declare that they're not racists or bigots and openly accept ideas that they would otherwise be opposed to.

Gender segregation ? Hey no sweat
Homophobia ? Yippee

Dare to mention those warts and watch people loose their minds and come up with retarded statements like "white supremacists shooting up a place of worship is just a few good 'ol boys having a bit of fun."

No, Islam isn't special at all

Why do we need a ban on criticizing Islam ? Just suppose there happened to be another Islamic terrorist attack and on the thread that would result somebody might point out that there are 13 countries in the world where apostasy is punishable by death and they're all Muslim countries.

Just think what might happen if someone were to read that and come to the "wrong" conclusion about Islam. That person might become emboldened to do something vandalize a Mosque or something.

If the NZ government thinks that Kiwis can't be trusted with things like the video or the manifesto then maybe it's time for the forum to take action against hate speech by prohibiting it.

Islam is so special that it even managed to gain tacit support when I posted a story about a speech that's bound to be critical about the religion, cancelled. Suck it up athiests

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Indeed. There are lots of deplorable manifestos (mein kampf , mao’s little red book, etc) and a healthy, free, adult society has no problem confronting the horrible ideas with reason, they don’t resort to childish censorship.



(FWIW, it seems like the epitome of knee jerk to ban this manifesto whilst permitting mein kampf to be sold.)

This manifesto is not a declaration of a worldview that can be "confronted."

It's a mish-mash of memes, jokes, copy-pasta, and more. It is a parting "gift" meant to confuse the media, fracture any debate, and generally troll the public.

 

[Giz]

This manifesto is not a declaration of a worldview that can be "confronted."

It's a mish-mash of memes, jokes, copy-pasta, and more. It is a parting "gift" meant to confuse the media, fracture any debate, and generally troll the public.

And yet it is so persuasive that it must be banned? The fragile psyches of New Zealanders can’t handle it?

 

[Darat]

Amazing how we've had 50 people killed because they were Muslims yet we need to discuss in this thread how terrible Islam is. You'd almost think some people supported the killing of the Muslims or that because other Muslims are bad we shouldn't be condemning these killings....

 

[Ranb]

I have a question that might be answered here. The attack came up for a brief discussion with a a guy I know; he claimed that one of the mosques that was attacked was the source of some ISIS soldiers in the past. I reminded him that it was an immigrant that conducted the attack and there is no evidence that he killed any ISIS soldiers or sympathizers. As far as I know some of the people he killed were born in NZ.

Did I get anything wrong?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Amazing how we've had 50 people killed because they were Muslims yet we need to discuss in this thread how terrible Islam is. You'd almost think some people supported the killing of the Muslims or that because other Muslims are bad we shouldn't be condemning these killings....

Par for the course.

 

[sadhatter]

Its is a progressive country. We accept peoples of any and all religions and belief systems. Part of that is that we do our best to accept them for who they are and what they are, without fear or favour. We don't tell them how their religion should behave, just so long as they do not break the laws of the land.

What we don't do, is ban them because they come from a predominantly Islamic country, we don't refer to their homelands as "****-hole countries", we don't criticise them because one of their religious requirements is for women to wear headdress* and we don't close our borders to people just because their skin is not white.

* We have a religious sect in this country known as the "Exclusive Brethren". They are an offshoot of the Irish Protestant "Plymouth Brethren"
.
[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/ndkrx6v7xch8l1r/BrethrenWomen.jpg?raw=1[/qimg]

Their women are required to have their hair uncut and with a hair covering - we never hear any criticism of that practice in their church.

Of course, the Exclusive Brethren are white.

Everyone there thinks the same?

Because your post crumbles if not. And as I can tell you of at least one person in your country who didn't feel the same way.

To be truthful your post should have said "people who think like me in my country feel this way. " but that just doesn't have the punch of trying to lie and make it seem like your country is borg-unified on these issues. Where everyone else lives in these scrambling countries that can't come to a consensus.

 

[sadhatter]

This manifesto is not a declaration of a worldview that can be "confronted."

It's a mish-mash of memes, jokes, copy-pasta, and more. It is a parting "gift" meant to confuse the media, fracture any debate, and generally troll the public.

And the plebs can't be trusted with it, right?

Do you think you would change your world view after reading it? If your answer is no, then you have quite the ego my friend. And id ask , what makes you so special?

 

[sadhatter]

Amazing how we've had 50 people killed because they were Muslims yet we need to discuss in this thread how terrible Islam is. You'd almost think some people supported the killing of the Muslims or that because other Muslims are bad we shouldn't be condemning these killings....

If that is the direction you need to take the debate in, go for it, but that is not what is happening.

Their extremists inspired other extremists to attack them. Their extremists also run countries without the checks and balances the extremist in chief has. These are important parts in the discussions.

 

[Stout]

Amazing how we've had 50 people killed because they were Muslims yet we need to discuss in this thread how terrible Islam is. You'd almost think some people supported the killing of the Muslims or that because other Muslims are bad we shouldn't be condemning these killings....

It's a shame isn't it? All those dissenters coming in here with their ideological impurity and questioning things like censorship. Damn those Alpha Hotels for their audacity to actually try to have a discussion in a "friendly and lively manner" when what they really should be doing is posting thoughts and prayers type posts.

They're probably nazis and Trump supporters.

I'll take it under advisement that mass killings are bad and make sure I condemn them, in all caps even, on future threads.

 

[theprestige]

Indeed. There are lots of deplorable manifestos (mein kampf , mao’s little red book, etc) and a healthy, free, adult society has no problem confronting the horrible ideas with reason, they don’t resort to childish censorship.



(FWIW, it seems like the epitome of knee jerk to ban this manifesto whilst permitting mein kampf to be sold.)

To be fair, MK and the LRB have had plenty of enthusiasts in their time, with predictably awful results.

It's all very well to dismiss Mein Kampf, 70 years after the peak of horror has been and gone. The trick is to predict it ahead of time, and nip it in the bud.

 

[Giz]

To be fair, MK and the LRB have had plenty of enthusiasts in their time, with predictably awful results.

It's all very well to dismiss Mein Kampf, 70 years after the peak of horror has been and gone. The trick is to predict it ahead of time, and nip it in the bud.

It’s just dispiriting to see how quickly a ‘skeptical’ forum abandons the principle of free inquiry and debate in favor of feelings and censorship.

 

[Steve]

It’s just dispiriting to see how quickly a ‘skeptical’ forum abandons the principle of free inquiry and debate in favor of feelings and censorship.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Darat]

If that is the direction you need to take the debate in, go for it, but that is not what is happening.



Their extremists inspired other extremists to attack them. Their extremists also run countries without the checks and balances the extremist in chief has. These are important parts in the discussions.

"Their"????