Anti-Muslim Terrorist Attack in... NZ?

[Stout]

You are applying YOUR standards (women should be allowed to sing the call to prayer because YOU think they should) to others.

Its their religion, and they are entitled to adhere to their practices, so long as those practices do not violate human rights. Sexual equality in religion is not a human rights issue. If it was, then the RCC would have been called to task for their failure to allow women to be ordained as priests a long, long time ago.

Interesting, I thought New Zealand was supposed to be a progressive country but that appears to be a misconception if I'm reading your post correctly.

We're dealing with the "rights" of religion up here in Canada right now and religion is loosing. There's this Christian university that has a very restrictive covenant, one that commands that students to abstinence from sex outside of heterosexual marriage. Now, this leaves the legally married and single gay people out in the cold, and unless those people are willing to life a lifestyle of celibacy while they're at university, they're not going to be able to continue their studies.

The Supreme Court of Canada has told them to get bent.

So we have evidence of sexual orientation within religion being a human rights issue and just your say-so that gender based discrimination is not. But, hey, if you want to invoke religious freedom to defend gender based discrimination, then....

protip. All caps sentences have maximum impact when the font colour is switched to red.

 

[Steve]

Do you think it is within my rights to do so?

Of course it is. I did not intend to imply otherwise. You obviously feel comfortable doing so and I doubt anyone would object. Of course, when you are on the private property of a religious organization they may also have an opinion regarding acceptable behaviour on their premises.

 

[smartcooky]

Interesting, I thought New Zealand was supposed to be a progressive country but that appears to be a misconception if I'm reading your post correctly.

Its is a progressive country. We accept peoples of any and all religions and belief systems. Part of that is that we do our best to accept them for who they are and what they are, without fear or favour. We don't tell them how their religion should behave, just so long as they do not break the laws of the land.

What we don't do, is ban them because they come from a predominantly Islamic country, we don't refer to their homelands as "****-hole countries", we don't criticise them because one of their religious requirements is for women to wear headdress* and we don't close our borders to people just because their skin is not white.

* We have a religious sect in this country known as the "Exclusive Brethren". They are an offshoot of the Irish Protestant "Plymouth Brethren"
.

Their women are required to have their hair uncut and with a hair covering - we never hear any criticism of that practice in their church.

Of course, the Exclusive Brethren are white.

 

[Steve]

Its is a progressive country. We accept peoples of any and all religions and belief systems. Part of that is that we do our best to accept them for who they are and what they are, without fear or favour. We don't tell them how their religion should behave, just so long as they do not break the laws of the land.

What we don't do, is ban them because they come from a predominantly Islamic country, we don't refer to their homelands as "****-hole countries", we don't criticise them because one of their religious requirements is for women to wear headdress* and we don't close our borders to people just because their skin is not white.

* We have a religious sect in this country known as the "Exclusive Brethren". They are an offshoot of the Irish Protestant "Plymouth Brethren"
.
[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/ndkrx6v7xch8l1r/BrethrenWomen.jpg?raw=1[/qimg]

Their women are required to have their hair uncut and with a hair covering - we never hear any criticism of that practice in their church.

Of course, the Exclusive Brethren are white.

Do the men of that sect have similar restrictions on their appearance?

Are they white because they impose restrictions on non-whites that might be interested in joining?

Do you (or they) hear any criticism of their practices outside of their church?

 

[Samson]

Do the men of that sect have similar restrictions on their appearance?

Are they white because they impose restrictions on non-whites that might be interested in joining?

Do you (or they) hear any criticism of their practices outside of their church?

It is exceptionally difficult to leave and they often have no further contact including from parents to children. I know a lot both inside and those who have left. They are powerful in business, especially horticulture.

 

[Steve]

It is exceptionally difficult to leave and they often have no further contact including from parents to children. I know a lot both inside and those who have left. They are powerful in business, especially horticulture.

Bog standard sect. Control by the males is everything.

 

[Stout]

Exclusive Bretheren ? never hear of them. My extended family was Plymouth Bretheren, very devout and my immediate family only saw them on special occasions as we were Prodestant for an hour or so every couple of months.

The Bretheren weren't bad people, at least not that I know of, sensitive topics never came up and if they did, then I was too young to understand them.

Of course what makes this topic rather silly is that, someone, somewhere decided that Islam is a race and quite a few people have bought into it. If Islam were indeed a race, then that would make apostasy impossible, unless you want to go sown that whole trans racial road.

I know this whole thing comes as a shock to New Zealand as a whole but to some of us, this is just another shooting in the news. I know it sounds callous, but that's the way it is.

 

[Stout]

It is exceptionally difficult to leave and they often have no further contact including from parents to children. I know a lot both inside and those who have left. They are powerful in business, especially horticulture.

I have a buddy who was adopted by and raised by Mormons and when he was a teenager and decided that he didn't want to be a Mormon, they threw him out out of the house and he hasn't had any contact with them since.

Harsh people, which is all I'll say about them because if I say what I really think then there's a yellow card or two in my future.

 

[smartcooky]

This is a bit off topic really, but since I'm using them as a example of a double standard related to the topic, and what I consider to be unfair criticism of Muslims in general, I'm going to go ahead and answer

Do the men of that sect have similar restrictions on their appearance?

Nope, although they they are almost always seen conservatively dressed (shirt and trousers, sometimes a tie, sometimes a jacket). I've never seen one wearing a hat.

Are they white because they impose restrictions on non-whites that might be interested in joining?

They are white because of their families' genetic heritages (not quite sure if I have put that correctly)

They don't take recruits from outside the church.
They cannot go to university, have televisions or radios
They cannot visit cinemas or the theatre, read newspapers or fiction
They are not permitted to vote in elections, serve in the armed forces or join any group that includes people outside the Brethren.
They cannot form friendships, or eat with people outside the church -- who are known as "worldlies".
Until very recently, they were not permitted to use use computers or own mobile phones

They don't marry outside the church (they consider the outside world to be evil and wicked), so their is no opportunity for racial diversity.

I can tell you that they have a problem with genes.... many (but not all) of their marriages are arranged within the church, and the newly married couple almost always move to another part of the country, or in many cases, to another country altogether. I think they are heading for a serious inbreeding problem a few generations down the line.

Do you (or they) hear any criticism of their practices outside of their church?

Very little. There has been the odd complaint about the way they treat excommunicated members; they have been known to conduct vendettas on them by trying to make their lives as difficult as they can. They are a bit like the Scientologists in that regard.

For the most part, we just leave them alone and they leave the rest of us alone.

 

[smartcooky]

It is exceptionally difficult to leave and they often have no further contact including from parents to children. I know a lot both inside and those who have left. They are powerful in business, especially horticulture.

And related industries... engineering, irrigation, farm machinery..

Mainline Commercials
Malcolm Machinery
Allflow Equipment
Electro Services
Bearing and Transmission Centre

All Brethren owned businesses right here in Richmond

 

[EHocking]

...I know this whole thing comes as a shock to New Zealand as a whole but to some of us, this is just another shooting in the news. I know it sounds callous, but that's the way it is.

I think you’ll probably find that the majority of non-N.Am poster will feel sad for you. Not for your callousness, but for the fact that you live in a society that has inured you to such an atrocity.

On other, nonN.Am societies, this atrocity is so shocking to us because it is so much not the norm in our societies or “just another news story”.

And we are very happy that this is the case.

 

[Max_mang]

I ask you to post evidence of this happening in New Zealand (after all, this thread is about the Mosque attacks here) and you post a link from Iran.

You don't get to call the shots here. Peddle that BS somewhere else.

The problem I see with posters like you and Stout and others is that you are all ready and willing to post horror stories, opinions and links to the worst of Islam, and purport that to be representative of ALL of Islam. Its like posting about all the most heinous disgusting people in the United States and claiming the are representative of everyone in America.

Nice strawman you built there.

Sometimes facts are inconvenient, but I expect them to be respected on a critical thinking board.

 

[Max_mang]

The shootings in your country's mosques were a tragic event. I have much sympathy for the surviving famiies and friends. I sincerely hope that they are able to deal with their grief and are eventually able to move on with their lives. I have much respect for the individuals. I have no respect for their religion. The facts that the victims were Muslims and were killed in a mosque has no positive or negative effect on my feelings of sympathy and respect. I would feel exactly the same if someone shot up a crowd at a sporting event. As a nonbeliever I view wearing of religious symbols and participating in the rites of a religion as hypocritical and not at all respectful. Respect can easily be shown without any pretending at all.

You said it much better than I could. Thanks.

 

[smartcooky]

I think you’ll probably find that the majority of non-N.Am poster will feel sad for you. Not for your callousness, but for the fact that you live in a society that has inured you to such an atrocity.

On other, nonN.Am societies, this atrocity is so shocking to us because it is so much not the norm in our societies or “just another news story”.

And we are very happy that this is the case.

 

[cullennz]

Probably been mentioned, but the have banned his manifesto now.

https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/nati...sque-shootings-manifesto-deemed-objectionable

Kind of getting embarrassing

 

[Stout]

I think you’ll probably find that the majority of non-N.Am poster will feel sad for you. Not for your callousness, but for the fact that you live in a society that has inured you to such an atrocity.

On other, nonN.Am societies, this atrocity is so shocking to us because it is so much not the norm in our societies or “just another news story”.

And we are very happy that this is the case.

I thank you for your concern but I'm sure you're aware that we have cynically titled thread called Today's Mass Shooting around here, aren't you ?

 

[Stout]

Joy !

MRU cancels speech by ex-Muslim-turned-atheist in light of New Zealand terror attack

Maybe it's time to amend the rules of this forum to ban any criticism of religion other than Christianity.

Oh, and scrub out any of those threads that deal with terrorist acts committed by non-Christians because those could be considered hate speech.

 

[EHocking]

Joy !

MRU cancels speech by ex-Muslim-turned-atheist in light of New Zealand terror attack

Maybe it's time to amend the rules of this forum to ban any criticism of religion other than Christianity.

Oh, and scrub out any of those threads that deal with terrorist acts committed by non-Christians because those could be considered hate speech.

How disingenuous.

Why did you ignore the actual position of MRU on the subject?
From the article you quoted,

The tragic event that occurred in Christchurch less than a week ago has had a large impact on many members in our community. We made this decision in light of that impact and we would absolutely have the speaker come to our campus at another time."​

 

[Stout]

Oh, you mean it wasn'r canceled, gotcha.

 

[dann]

Maybe it's time to amend the rules of this forum to ban any criticism of religion other than Christianity.

The rules don't need to be mended, but maybe it's time for the very outspoken anti-Muslims in this forum to recognize that Islam isn't very special in any respect. It's a religion, just like Christianity or Judaism. Like OT Christians, the anti-Muslims seem to think that Islam isn't just like any other religion. It's the wrong religion. That's the distinction that most of us argue against.

Oh, and scrub out any of those threads that deal with terrorist acts committed by non-Christians because those could be considered hate speech.

Are you implying that criticizing terror committed by Muslim extremists isn't allowed? Are you one of the guys who can't distinguish between Muslim extremists and ordinary Muslims and therefore get upset whenever somebody points out the difference?