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Trans Women are not Women

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Roboramma said:
What utter nonsense. Government is a part of society, just like a sporting organisation, and when two different parties within society come into conflict, some sort of resolution will occur, but that doesn't mean that society as a whole somehow came to an agreement.
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Government is not one of the ways a society decides to organise itself... And then you go on and admit that it is


The phrase I am looking for is indeed "utter nonsense".
 
I don't think the argument was that the government isn't one. Sure it is. But it's not the only one. And I think the argument was merely whether the government is the best one to solve this particular problem.

Which I don't think is nonsense.
 
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HansMustermann said:
I don't think the argument was that the government isn't one. Sure it is. But it's not the only one. And I think the argument was merely whether the government is the best one to solve this particular problem.

Which I don't think is nonsense.
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Historically (at least in the "western" societies) it seems as if society has been happy to go.down the path of discriminating pretty much as they please regardless of the "protected" classes in the rest of society. I really cant see this changing. Especially when you think that the international sporting bodies have been dealing with gender discrimination policies probably longer than any other group in society.
 
Well, I didn't say whether it would change or not. Just that the argument wasn't about whether or not the government is one of the ways society organizes itself. Whether it's right or wrong, that's a different issue.
 
Ron_Tomkins said:
Trans women are not women.
That said, some of them are still ******* hawt. Have you seen Blaire White? Jesus Christ.
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Beautiful, but still a league short of Andreja Pejich. Must be something in the water in Eastern Europe, because Stav Strashko is also amazing.
 
theprestige said:
Handicapping transwomen seems like the worst of both worlds.
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Tend to agree

I thought the whole point of trans women wanting to compete with females was to lose the differentiation between trans and women.

So chucking in handicapping would surely defeat the whole purpose, by highlighting the difference between trans women and women.

Bearing in mind the whole time they are competing with each other the commentators would have to be continuously chucking in.

"Well its back to Chuck at the Shot-put....How is it looking Chuck?"

"Well Chad...Its on a knife edge here at Gillete "All men are evil" Stadium. Davina just threw the best shot of the round at 22 meters. A full 3 meters further than Brandy!"

"So Chuck. Pretty cut and dry there. Calling it for Davina?........."

".....Hey not so fast Chad! Davina is Trans....So we need to take the standard 3.5 meters off of her throw, and it looks like Brandy might have taken it!"

"Looks like Brandy has it?"

"....Well... Maybe not. They are still look it at the testosterone level handicap....."
 
sadhatter said:
How is the solution not re just re brand it bio male and bio female sports?
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Well we need to get good definitions of bio male and bio female for that, these have been rather contentious in the past. Such as ruling some women are not female enough to compete.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Well we need to get good definitions of bio male and bio female for that, these have been rather contentious in the past. Such as ruling some women are not female enough to compete.
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And how much of an issue was this to sport? Did it drastically change it? Did the vast majority of leagues have to retool?

Or are we talking a handful of people over , let's say 50 years?

If so, that handful may just have to bite the bullet. Btw any cases I can think of, medical records were very suspect.
 
angrysoba said:
What is it?
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Pretty similar to how we identify gay people.

Which is to say that while we normally just take their word for it, it's also true that something else is going on that makes it something other than just a simple choice.
 
sadhatter said:
Look at how often your posts contain phrases like " I don't know about sports" and " I don't care about this sport ".
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Look at how often what I actually said is different from what people seem to think I said or claim I said

You wouldn't listen to someone who knows nothing about trans people in regards to trans issues, so why should your opinion ( which constantly is "i dont know" and " I don't care") be taken seriously on sport?
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I never said I know nothing about sport. But yes if someone was making sense on trans issues I would listen to them regardless of how much prior knowledge they had.

It is perfectly valid to say 'I don't know' and the counter to that is not 'well if you don't know then I won't listen' the counter to that is to present the data that is missing. Would you prefer I lied and pretended to be an expert on MMA?

And to cut off the " but it is a trans issue " , one person's right to swing their fist ends at the start of another person's nose. And if you do not understand the analogy give it a look up before replying.
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That's a complete non-sequitur.
 
Ziggurat said:
What's the standard for being authentically trans?
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It seems like that question doesn't need to answered to determine that specific example is not authentically trans.

To make a math analogy, sometimes you can use the greater than/less than symbols without determining exactly where you would need an equals sign.

Ziggurat said:
Apparently the government of Canada disagrees. They think parents can be excluded from the decision.
https://pjmedia.com/trending/trans-...oy-or-its-family-violence-canada-court-rules/
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Were the parents really excluded? Or was one parent over-ruled by the other parent, the child, and the doctors? Because those are very different things.
 
Mycroft said:
Pretty similar to how we identify gay people.

Which is to say that while we normally just take their word for it, it's also true that something else is going on that makes it something other than just a simple choice.
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Often, but not always. Society provides certain benefits for being a woman that a lot of men might like to have access to (such as car insurance in the above case), but there aren't many benefits to being gay that a straight person wants access to. I suppose one might enter into a gay marriage with someone one had no romantic interest in in order to bypass inheritance taxes or get spousal immunity from testifying against someone, but those are pretty edge cases. I think there's a lot more potential for abusing the freedom to self-identify gender than there is for abusing sexuality self-identification.
 
Mycroft said:
It seems like that question doesn't need to answered to determine that specific example is not authentically trans.
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You can only say he's "not authentically trans" if you've got some concept of trans being more than simply self-declaration. But what more is required? What separates authentically trans from non-authentically trans? You may not feel that example needs clarification, but there will come cases which do. And if you can't form criteria beyond simple self-declaration, then even that example can't be excluded as not authentic.

Were the parents really excluded? Or was one parent over-ruled by the other parent, the child, and the doctors? Because those are very different things.
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Did you read the linked decision? The mother's opinion on the transition plays no part in the judge's consideration. In fact, the notion that either parent would have insight into the welfare of the child is completely absent. Only the child's desires and the opinions of the doctors are given any weight whatsoever.

Moreover, there's a very troubling reliance on the asserted risk of suicide. This is troubling because there are lots of reports that kids are coached to say that they are feeling suicidal or will attempt suicide if they don't get what they want. There seems to be no effort by the court to determine if this risk is real.
 
Ziggurat said:
Moreover, there's a very troubling reliance on the asserted risk of suicide. This is troubling because there are lots of reports that kids are coached to say that they are feeling suicidal or will attempt suicide if they don't get what they want.
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Do you have a link for that? That's very troubling.
 
Also, I think I should go on record as saying I would pay to see a trans only league. In any sport.
 
Belz... said:
Do you have a link for that? That's very troubling.
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The court's decision is here, and you can see how often the judge uses suicide risk as a justification:
https://www.docdroid.net/nm1XeFs/bowden-decision-feb-27-2019.pdf

Regarding instructions to exploit suicide narratives:
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0202330

In the time period just before announcing that they were transgender, 63.5% of AYAs [adolescent and young adult] exhibited an increase in their internet/social media (Table 7). To assess AYA exposure to existing online content, parents were asked what kind of advice their child received from someone/people online. AYAs had received online advice including how to tell if they were transgender (54.2%); the reasons that they should transition right away (34.7%); that if their parents did not agree for them to take hormones that the parents were “abusive” and “transphobic” (34.3%); that if they waited to transition they would regret it (29.1%); what to say and what not to say to a doctor or therapist in order to convince them to provide hormones (22.3%); that if their parents were reluctant to take them for hormones that they should use the “suicide narrative” (telling the parents that there is a high rate of suicide in transgender teens) to convince them (20.7%); and that it is acceptable to lie or withhold information about one’s medical or psychological history from a doctor or therapist in order to get hormones/get hormones faster (17.5%). Two respondents, in answers to other questions, described that their children later told them what they learned from online discussion lists and sites. One parent reported, “He has told us recently that he was on a bunch of discussion lists and learned tips there. Places where teens and other trans people swap info. Like to use [certain, specific] words [with] the therapist when describing your GD, because [they are] code for potentially suicidal and will get you a diagnosis and Rx for hormones.” Another parent disclosed, “The threat of suicide was huge leverage. What do you say to that? It’s hard to have a steady hand and say no to medical transition when the other option is dead kid. She learned things to say that would push our buttons and get what she wanted and she has told us now that she learned that from trans discussion sites.”
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This is admittedly anecdotal, but I doubt you can get better information than that, given the sensitivity of the topic makes it unlikely you could get objective measurements.
 
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