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Trans Women are not Women

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JoeMorgue said:
OUR NUMBERS ARE! You're the one who keeps changing in some kind of perverse Monty Hall problem where it's "All Women" in one breath and "Just the trans-women" in the next.
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Your numbers are straight where 0.3% of people entirely displace 50% of people?

Aye, right.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Because he isn't.
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Again, you don't know that. How would you know, since whether you're trans or not is a matter of self-identification?

Because if he actually was he might have an iota of empathy for trans people but he doesn't because, like yourself, he doesn't give a **** about them.
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I suppose it beats not giving a **** about women, like yourself.

See how completely unproductive your lies are? Now you're stooped to accusing other posters of bigotry, not because they have displayed that, but because they disagree with your idea about categories in competitive sports. Don't you think you're taking this a bit too far?

I do care about trans people, but I won't throw women under the bus for them. I'd rather have a solution that helps and supports both, but if given the choice between the two, I'll go with the larger group of people. Needs of the many, and all that.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Your numbers are straight where 0.3% of people entirely displace 50% of people?

Aye, right.
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No one has said this. You've been explained exactly what was said and why. But at this point your argument is so weak that your only out is to lie again and again to try to make other people look bad.

Not their argument, mind you, but the posters themselves.
 
Belz... said:
Oh, stop playing games. It stopped being clever a good while ago.

You know EXACTLY what I meant, and you knew at the time as well. You're using rhetorical games in order to ignore the flaws in your argument.
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The flaws in my argument? Waiting to hear what they are. Repeatedly asserting that transwomen are not women is not pointing out anything other than your pre-existing prejudices.


If biological advantage isn't a problem,
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Well let's stop right there. I never said it wasn't a problem. What I said was that nobody cares when its 5' people being excluded from the NBA or when Serena Williams dominates tennis. It's only a problem when a trans person enters the arena. What I am asking for is consistency.

If you're instead going to say that you do want categories, just not ones that separate trans women from biological females, then justify it,
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Justify excluding them. Treating them as pariahs isn't right.

because you've got the exact same issue there as with a single category. We're not talking about individual skill or ability,
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No actually that's exactly what we are talking about. Because each of the people you are excluding is an individual person. Not a population or a bell curve.

or about how many women out of the total population have what it takes to compete about the best of the category, but rather that you've got a group which, by the very fact that they are biological males, will outperform actual females consistently, and drive them out of competition altogether.
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Take out the phrase biological males and the word actual and you describe the current situation. The difference is they all have vaginas so you don't think it's important.

You seem to have a fantasy that the status quo is a group of more or less equally capable people all competing to see who is the best thanks to skill but perhaps look at the competitions and realise that is not the case. [/quote]

Stop playing games and address the arguments like an adult.
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Let's. I am still waiting for anyone to address the example I gave of an ACTUAL transwoman playing competitive soccer and explain to me why she shouldn't be allowed to. Let's talk about real examples rather than ******** publicity stunts and fantasies
 
Belz... said:
I suppose it beats not giving a **** about women, like yourself.
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Yeah I was wondering when this would be raised. Funny enough I got the same ******** arguments when I argued FOR women being better represented in STEM fields from a lot of the same people.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
The flaws in my argument? Waiting to hear what they are.
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I've told you repeatedly what they are. It's disingenuous of you, even if you disagree with me, to pretend that I haven't done so.

Repeatedly asserting that transwomen are not women is not pointing out anything other than your pre-existing prejudices.
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And again, your only standing now is to attack other posters. It really shows how utterly void of value your position is.

But whether or not trans women are women is irrelevant to the discussion. What's relevant is whether trans women are female. They are not, and so it's problematic to include them in categories reserved for the latter.

It's interesting that you want to throw women under the bus in your quest for wokeness, but I suppose it parallels efforts by other far-leftists to do so for other minorities.

Well let's stop right there. I never said it wasn't a problem. What I said was that nobody cares when its 5' people being excluded from the NBA or when Serena Williams dominates tennis. It's only a problem when a trans person enters the arena. What I am asking for is consistency.
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Again you're focusing on the wrong distinction. Try this: why are women and men segregated in most sports?

Justify excluding them. Treating them as pariahs isn't right.
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Who the **** said anything about treating them as pariahs? You're so blinded by your ideology that you HAVE to be on the side of trans people that you forgot that there are limits to such efforts. You can't bend reality to make it fit their wishes, for instance, and that has zero impact on treating trans people as people or making sure they get the support and treatment they need or want. That you can't tell the difference between the two is troubling.

No actually that's exactly what we are talking about. Because each of the people you are excluding is an individual person. Not a population or a bell curve.
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See my question about segregation above. If what you say here was correct the two genders would compete together.

Take out the phrase biological males
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Denied. Trans women are biological males whether you like the fact or not.

The difference is they all have vaginas so you don't think it's important.
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What's this obsession you have with genitalia? This is at least the second time you bring it up.

You seem to have a fantasy that the status quo is a group of more or less equally capable people all competing to see who is the best thanks to skill but perhaps look at the competitions and realise that is not the case.
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And you seem to have an unhealthy obsession with strawmanning other people's posts and opinions. Stop that.
 
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Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Yeah I was wondering when this would be raised.
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Nothing was raised. I was showing you why your statement was insulting and stupid. Apparently that went right over your head.

Funny enough I got the same ******** arguments when I argued FOR women being better represented in STEM fields from a lot of the same people.
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That doesn't make any sense. Why would you be accused of throwing women under the bus for that?
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
The flaws in my argument? Waiting to hear what they are. Repeatedly asserting that transwomen are not women is not pointing out anything other than your pre-existing prejudices.
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Coming back to this, it almost sounds like you've been served this sort of accusations yourself in the past, and are now trying to show everybody how woke you are by accusing everybody who disagrees with you of exactly this.

It's pathetic. Don't presume to know what people think beyond what they write. We're not discussing whether trans women are women, or females, or people. We're discussing whether it is FAIR to include them in female sports.
 
Archie Gemmill Goal said:
Because being trans is more than just crossing your fingers and saying 3 times I am a man/woman.
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No, seriously, please answer the actual question: how would you go about vetting who's really trans and who isn't? Because otherwise you're arguing that a relevant example isn't a True Scotsman.

Yes, it may involve more than crossing their fingers, but that doesn't answer the question: WHAT else do they need to qualify then? And how would you tell, if you're to exclude such cases?


Even more relevantly: are you really going to open the door that someone else can tell you whether you're really trans or just faking it? REALLY? You can actually tell someone not just that they don't qualify for one thing or another, but that they're not a (trans)woman at all? Think about it for a minute, and I'm sure you can figure out yourself why that's more transphobic than any exclusion from sports.

I do so love it when trolls dig themselves not just under a bridge, but in a deep hole under the bridge :p
 
Also, since I'm going to get accused of being phobic and not knowing what it's like, bla, bla, bla, this seems like a relevant discussion to mention again that I for one grew up as BOTH. Mom wanted a boy, and luckily for her she got one. Me. Grandma wanted a girl, so she made me be one.

So I changed gender a couple of times A DAY. I was whatever gender the person I was with wanted me to be at the moment.

Forget that guy who changed before a competition and then after it. That's probably months in between changes. He's a wuss. I could be a boy in the morning, a girl by 10 AM, and a boy again in the evening when mom got home.

Well, except when I spent the summer with grandma. Read: most of the years. Then I could be a girl for like 2-3 months in a row :p

And believe me, children are GOOD at playing make belief, and I was pretty darn good at it too, if I may say so myself.

So now it's proposed that, what, someone could tell me I'm not really a boy or not really a girl? :p
 
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HansMustermann said:
Also, since I'm going to get accused of being phobic and not knowing what it's like, bla, bla, bla, this seems like a relevant discussion to mention again that I for one grew up as BOTH. Mom wanted a boy, and luckily for her she got one. Me. Grandma wanted a girl, so she made me be one.

So I changed gender a couple of times A DAY. I was whatever gender the person I was with wanted me to be at the moment.
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That's messed up, but I have to ask: was your grandmother insane?
 
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