Are we talking about the same place? The reports I've seen put some of these arsons south of Place de la Republique -- specfically on rue Charles-François Dupuis, just off Beranger. I recall this as a pretty nice place; just north of Place des Vosages, etc.
Mycroft
High Priest of Ed
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- 20,501
No, I'm arguing that racism plays a primary role, I'm not excluding other things. Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Now 'scuse me, but are you now going to argue that racism and social exclusion has nothing to do with what's going on in France? If you are, please do, it's bound to be a pretty entertaining read!
The issue isn't whose absolute is correct, but what you base your opinions on.
Do you read french newspapers?
I make a deliberate effort to not base my world-view on what I read in the papers (or any other media source). They selectively choose what to report, what not to report, and how to report it. Trying to form an informed opinion on a subject requires going far beyond what is reported in the media.
ETA: It doesn't mean I don't read/listen to the news. It means that I am EXTREMELY critical of it, and do not blindly accept what they are trying to convince me of.
French newspapers typically present a bit of a wider array of opinions than US newspapers, and they're more vocal and straightforward about their political biases. Also, I live in Quebec (although I have visited France frequently), so I am pretty much dependent on the media for my information about what's going on there. Also, when you demand "evidence" on a forum, all I can give you, besides anecdotes, is press links.
When has the US, or anywhere, had hispanic (whatever that might be ... er, yes I know, someone who speaks spanish ) riots? As to the numerousness of asiatics, iirc they have significant populations -- actually ghettos -- in many metro areas.
And isn't it interesting that some (racial) groups choose to assimilate, others to riot -- when they are not too busy with other anti-societal behaviors.
Was that a 'yes'?
[heavy sarcasm]I dunno, Hammegk, maybe whitey isn't as scared of the gooks as he is of the darkies and spicks?[/heavy sarcasm]
Does a bird have wings? Does a wolf cry out his loneliness?
NoZed Avenger
Penultimate Amazing
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- 11,286
I've been away from the computer all weekend; so I apologize if this link has already been posted and I missed it in my brief catch-up review:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051106/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051106/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting
In the US one kind of found that racism is very difficult to "change". A lot of the change we have had has taken place as people have simply died off. Education for the young has been very good. I can look at my husbands family and see this. His grandmother may finally die since her greatgrandson is marrying a woman that is half black. His mom isn't too sure about it, but she'll attend the wedding. His sister isn't totally happy, but she says all she cares about is that she is a nice girl. My children can't figure out why grandma and great grandma are in any way upset. It simply never occured to them this could be a problem. Now there is still terrible racism in the US. But it's wonderful to see that at least in one family things are changing.
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ohhhh poopers, I had the choice of the wonderful arson area (did I know that ....NO! it just has a McDonalds and a Leon's to eat at there. they did close the big Tati's...)
Or near the Gare du Lyon where we usually stay. Bummer....Usually we stay near the train station as I really enjoy the Marias area for walking around.
Oh this is going to be fun!
And will we get a room discount, NO!!!!
The reason we are staying there is that our usual Novotel has hiked their rates!
Or near the Gare du Lyon where we usually stay. Bummer....Usually we stay near the train station as I really enjoy the Marias area for walking around.
Oh this is going to be fun!
And will we get a room discount, NO!!!!
The reason we are staying there is that our usual Novotel has hiked their rates!
"10 Officers Shot as Riots Worsen in French Cities
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By CRAIG S. SMITH
Published: November 7, 2005
PARIS, Monday, Nov. 7 - Rioters fired shotguns at the police in a working-class suburb of Paris on Sunday, wounding 10 officers as the country's fast-spreading urban unrest escalated dangerously. Just hours earlier, President Jacques Chirac called an emergency meeting of top security officials and promised increased police pressure to confront the violence."
NYT today...
WTF? Still?
When does a riot transform into innsurection?
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By CRAIG S. SMITH
Published: November 7, 2005
PARIS, Monday, Nov. 7 - Rioters fired shotguns at the police in a working-class suburb of Paris on Sunday, wounding 10 officers as the country's fast-spreading urban unrest escalated dangerously. Just hours earlier, President Jacques Chirac called an emergency meeting of top security officials and promised increased police pressure to confront the violence."
NYT today...
WTF? Still?
When does a riot transform into innsurection?
richardm
Philosopher
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- 9,248
Well, it is the fault of the rioters. But that doesn't mean we can't look at the reasons they are doing it.
FWIW I heard one Radio 4 correspondent stating confidently that this is not so much a political thing as almost a rivalry between gangs - "We can torch more cars than you can". There do seem to be some similarities between this and the problems we had one summer in the UK a few years ago, where every night there seemed to be a different city having a riot.
This does seem to be a worse situation, but I'm not convinced yet that "insurrection" is the right word for it. It seems to be too directionless.
FWIW I heard one Radio 4 correspondent stating confidently that this is not so much a political thing as almost a rivalry between gangs - "We can torch more cars than you can". There do seem to be some similarities between this and the problems we had one summer in the UK a few years ago, where every night there seemed to be a different city having a riot.
This does seem to be a worse situation, but I'm not convinced yet that "insurrection" is the right word for it. It seems to be too directionless.
Reginald
Graduate Poster
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A few things have struck me about these riots.
The French authorities have missed the boat if they want to calm this thing by discussion with the community leaders in the riot areas, since the thing has now spread there is no centralised area to concentrate that effort on. The time for that would have been day1 or 2.
They could send the troops in (I think that would be the type of response you would see in the UK), but it's my opinion that they are genuinely affraid that more young rioters will die, just fuelling the whole thing up even more.
The French social model has always appeared rather confusing to me, I suppose it's because they have kept this simmering underclass something of a secret. Unfortunately as stories of burning cars etc. hit the headlines it becomes increasingly obvious to me and I suppose the outside world that all was not as smooth as it should be.
I'm not sure that I would know which way to go, but I know this, If they think that getting the religious leadership of the Muslim communities in France to issue fatwas against this rioting they are going to find out very quickly something that has been rather apparent outside of France for a few years. Namely that Muslim leaders who issue these things are often seen as too supportive of the non-Muslim ruling body and simply ignored. Much in the same way as after the London Tube bombings, main stream Muslim leaders rush out some fatwa that only main stream Muslims might listen to (not the audience that might carry out further terrorist activity I think we would be agreed).
Religious solution and "community discussions" aside they now have very little choice BUT to use force to contain it. Had they acted sooner they would have had more options.
One last observation. When we have a riot in the UK, you generally see that the rioters have coincidentally rioted their way to some electrical shop or other high value goods outlet. Political principle will always take second place when a 30" plasma TV is up for easy grabs. Can anyone confirm if similar incidents have occurred in the French riot, casually observing, it seems that they have been more bent on burning than looting. Maybe that says something about the strength of political conviction in France as opposed to the UK.
The French authorities have missed the boat if they want to calm this thing by discussion with the community leaders in the riot areas, since the thing has now spread there is no centralised area to concentrate that effort on. The time for that would have been day1 or 2.
They could send the troops in (I think that would be the type of response you would see in the UK), but it's my opinion that they are genuinely affraid that more young rioters will die, just fuelling the whole thing up even more.
The French social model has always appeared rather confusing to me, I suppose it's because they have kept this simmering underclass something of a secret. Unfortunately as stories of burning cars etc. hit the headlines it becomes increasingly obvious to me and I suppose the outside world that all was not as smooth as it should be.
I'm not sure that I would know which way to go, but I know this, If they think that getting the religious leadership of the Muslim communities in France to issue fatwas against this rioting they are going to find out very quickly something that has been rather apparent outside of France for a few years. Namely that Muslim leaders who issue these things are often seen as too supportive of the non-Muslim ruling body and simply ignored. Much in the same way as after the London Tube bombings, main stream Muslim leaders rush out some fatwa that only main stream Muslims might listen to (not the audience that might carry out further terrorist activity I think we would be agreed).
Religious solution and "community discussions" aside they now have very little choice BUT to use force to contain it. Had they acted sooner they would have had more options.
One last observation. When we have a riot in the UK, you generally see that the rioters have coincidentally rioted their way to some electrical shop or other high value goods outlet. Political principle will always take second place when a 30" plasma TV is up for easy grabs. Can anyone confirm if similar incidents have occurred in the French riot, casually observing, it seems that they have been more bent on burning than looting. Maybe that says something about the strength of political conviction in France as opposed to the UK.
Flo
Illuminator
Flo
Illuminator
The majority of Arabs (Algerians, Moroccans, Malians, etc.) came to France as soldiers and laborers at a time when their countries of origins were still French colonies. They therefore were French citizens. Some more were "invited" to come afterwards since France lacked labourers in some industrial and agricultural sectors.
Those integrated quite well, but the situation started to desagregate in the 60's, together with work and housing situation, when the first generation labourers brought their families in. The present situation has to do with the lack (real and supposed) of integration prospects of the second and third generations, the continued unemployment, housing problems, discrimination, and the lack of a decent integration policy.
Of course, the relatively recent arrival of islamic rabble rousers has helped nothing ...
Flo
Illuminator
and it can also be argued that it is because of school holidays, and that their families are not exerting proper control over them, and that older rioters are encouraging them to riot because they know 13-15 years olds are not going to think about what is really in their interest, neither are they really at risk to end up in jail, and ....
Sure, French society is not taking good care of its youth, especially the poorer ones, and Sarkozy is a jackass interested only in his election as president in 2007 and therefore trying to play on the favorite sport of the French right wingers ("blame the immigrants"), and every single government since the 60es has shown inept economic policies, but it neither explains it all nor does it excuse rioting and burning their own environment.
Gotcha. Thanks.
We have had the same sort of problems over the years, damn Irish, damn Germans, and like that. A primary difference is that, until recently, the concept was "melting pot" not "diversity" (which strikes me as suicidal). That and the fact that all of these groups were christian so that there was a basic common ground that is lacking with your new immegrants.