Trans Women are not Women

[Belz...]

Maybe I should because the rest of you seem to have gone down the rabbit hole of lady brains and men trapped in women's bodies.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, end of.

Well, yes, but so what? If they want to transition, medical technology allows the to do that. If that allows them to live their live more comfortably, more power to them. And if they go through that effort and expenditure, I think it's fair to call them "she", in this instance. However, they are still not biological females.

 

[Belz...]

Nasty conundrum on that.

From a physical - and presumably psychological - perspective, transitioning is much more effective if started before puberty.

Maybe, however before puberty I don't think the child's gender identity can be properly pinpointed. Children, and teens, are often confused about that or are often hard to fit into neat categories. That doesn't mean that once they're adults they won't fit right in. I think transitioning a kid amounts to child abuse.

 

[Belz...]

In almost every sport, physical strength is an advantage, even if just a small one.

Hell, as I mentioned in the past, even in video game competitions, men have an advantage in clicking and typing because of their body structure. Life's just not fair.

 

[Strawberry]

Well, yes, but so what? If they want to transition, medical technology allows the to do that. If that allows them to live their live more comfortably, more power to them. And if they go through that effort and expenditure, I think it's fair to call them "she", in this instance. However, they are still not biological females.

No they're not. And actual biological females are getting increasingly sick of it.

Why is it always the women who have to move over and cede space to people who have a politically correct mental illness? How comes men aren't being asked to cede bathroom space or changing room space? Why aren't male athletes being expected to grin and bear it when someone with twice their body weight and skeletal structure wins every gold medal?

Women should go on strike from being female. If you lot think transwomen are really women then let them do the hard bit and bring your babies into the world.


Oh, what they can't? How surprising.

 

[Belz...]

No they're not. And actual biological females are getting increasingly sick of it.

Do they? Aside from anecdotes, can you support that? Or are you projecting your own opinion onto other people?

Why is it always the women who have to move over and cede space to people who have a politically correct mental illness? How comes men aren't being asked to cede bathroom space or changing room space?

Er... they are, actually. By trans men.

Why aren't male athletes being expected to grin and bear it when someone with twice their body weight and skeletal structure wins every gold medal?

Well, they are. By other men.

 

[Strawberry]

Do they? Aside from anecdotes, can you support that? Or are you projecting your own opinion onto other people?



Er... they are, actually. By trans men.



Well, they are. By other men.

My own opinion, as a woman, is that I'm sick of it.

Go and squeeze a pineapple out from your nostril and then come back and tell me that a man with breast implants and his mickey chopped off should be allowed to compete in women's sports.

Gender dysphoria is basically being used as a trojan horse to drive women back into the kitchen.

 

[Belz...]

My own opinion, as a woman, is that I'm sick of it.

See? Why didn't say it like that to begin with, rather than drag all women with you?

Go and squeeze a pineapple out from your nostril and then come back and tell me that a man with breast implants and his mickey chopped off should be allowed to compete in women's sports.

I presume you're talking about giving birth. How about barren women or childless ones? Do they have a right to compete in women's sports? That is such a bizarre argument.

The actual argument is that trans-women have an unfair advantage. That's it. It's the only relevant argument, and since it's convincing, I see no reason to use another, weaker one.

Gender dysphoria is basically being used as a trojan horse to drive women back into the kitchen.

Sheer nonsense. What's you basis for this? And how would that work?

Trans people represent 0.3% of the population at best. How are they going to destroy women's rights? You're talking crazy.

 

[JoeMorgue]

According to some posters here, that means you want trans people to be subjected to bullying until they commit suicide.

I've had to achieve an almost Zen like level of acceptance with the fact that I'm always going to be the villain in somebody's story.

 

[Lithrael]

While we’re on the subject I do completely agree that brutal honesty about what will and won’t turn out great for any particular aspect and degree of transitioning is very important. Being able to reconstruct something lost to accident or disease, and being able to construct something from scratch, are IMO great goals for medicine. But the people involved need to understand the depth of the risks and exactly how much reward is likely or even possible. Most of the trans community seems to think so too. Some of the worst anti-trans sentiment seems to come from people who got involved with early experimental quacks, people who were so eager that they saw only what they wanted to see, and misled one another into awful messes.

To the current topic, what I'd advocate is some kind of handicap system. It would take some maths and fine tuning but I don't think it'd be that hard to find the right spot where trans athletes can still win on occasion but don't obliterate the competition. Something like, say the cis male record time is one minute and the cis female record time is one minute ten seconds, let all the women race together but put a (10-x) second handicap on the trans women competitors. It would still hurt some feelings but at a level I think everyone could deal with. You do have to balance 'treat me like x' with 'give everyone a fair shot.' That is, if you want to formally compete in women's sport, yeah, you'd have to be out as trans and get the special rules. It's not ideal but neither is the world.

 

[baron]

Go and squeeze a pineapple out from your nostril and then come back and tell me that a man with breast implants and his mickey chopped off should be allowed to compete in women's sports.

I approve of this grammatical vehicle.

 

[Lithrael]

Toot

 

[The Atheist]

Caster Semenya is a different issue. She isn't transgender.

Now, if you'd taken the extra 20 seconds to read all of my post instead of lazily reaching for the keyboard while still completely ignorant of what I'd typed, you'd have saved me needing to repeat myself.

I typed this:

Easy fix - have a "non-binary gender" third grade that allow MtF and FtM trans to compete against each other, along with those of indeterminate/intersex gender, like Caster Semenya and the other two medal winners at the Rio 800m for women.

... because she's a far, far more unusual case...

So unusual that all three medal winners at the Rio Olympics Women's 800m were intersex.

Not as unusual as you might think, I expect.

Why did you throw Caster Semenya in there at the end? She is not a "trans woman", she was born that way...

Another one who doesn't read an entire post before typing nonsense.

The reason Semenya can go in the "non-binary" gender class is because she is not a biological female.

 

[quadraginta]

Perhaps you would like Farsi? I was having a conversation with my friend that was born in Iran a few days ago and I was amazed to learn that Farsi doesn't have masculine and feminine pronouns. He mentioned to me that this was a part of English that he still has trouble with because in Farsi he didn't need to identify the sex of the individual to use a pronoun.


He ran home and she ran home in Farsi (Persian) from Google translate:



او به خانه زد
او به خانه زد

This brings up an interesting if not particularly on-topic observation.

In view of the historical record of women's rights and entrenched misogyny in Persia/Iran, it would appear that the existence or absence of gender specific pronouns has little to do with the treatment of women within a culture.

 

[quadraginta]

Maybe, however before puberty I don't think the child's gender identity can be properly pinpointed. Children, and teens, are often confused about that or are often hard to fit into neat categories. That doesn't mean that once they're adults they won't fit right in. I think transitioning a kid amounts to child abuse.

Do you think that reversibly postponing puberty until a child reaches a socially acceptable age of majority so that their bodies don't make an irreversible choice for them is child abuse?

Because that is what is done by any reputable therapists and endocrinologists in the field. They are prescribed androgen blockers which delay a change which all evidence shows that they do not want. And even that is not done casually.

Transgenderism isn't some new fad. It has existed and has largely been accepted by most non-Judaic cultures for all of history. The dysphoria isn't a result of being transgender. It is a result of the social strictures forced on the transgendered by social systems which are intent on finding them somehow broken or even abominations.

Just because someone is a child does not mean that their evaluations of themselves are without merit and can be casually dismissed. There is a difference between 'tomboys' or 'sissies' and children who are transgendered.

Their input deserves consideration and review. Kids are not just given fistfuls of hormones because they say they want to try being a different gender. Years of counseling are involved. But their bodies don't operate on the same clock as society's legal definition of competence, and when puberty sets in there is no going back.

It is 'child abuse' to force them to be trapped in a body they detest when there is no significant physiological cost in preventing that.

Especially when compared to the psychological costs implicit in refusing such treatment. If you are at all interested in the causes of high rates of suicide in transgender youth that's a good place to start looking. That and the social rejection that goes with being trans in the first place.

That ostracism isn't the sort of thing that a child would choose to be subjected to. There is no good reason to force them to deal with having their bodies against them as well.

 

[Belz...]

Do you think that reversibly postponing puberty until a child reaches a socially acceptable age of majority so that their bodies don't make an irreversible choice for them is child abuse?

I think puberty is part of what makes a child into an adult able to make those sorts of decisions. There is no perfect solution to this issue.

Transgenderism isn't some new fad.

You don't need to tell me. There are surely a number of confused or pressured kids and teens who think picking a wacky gender is cool and all, but gender dysphoria is a real thing.

The dysphoria isn't a result of being transgender.

Er... yes, it is. That's the definition. Transgender people are those with gender dysphoria.

It is 'child abuse' to force them to be trapped in a body they detest when there is no significant physiological cost in preventing that.

My point is that it's too early to tell at that age.

That ostracism isn't the sort of thing that a child would choose to be subjected to.

I hope you don't think I've ever claimed this.

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

My point is that it's too early to tell at that age.

<snip>

What age? Onset of puberty? That isn't all that young.

What is the "child abuse" in allowing a child who has been determined through the treatment of clinicians to be very likely transgender to use reversible androgen blocking therapy to delay that puberty until society has deemed them 'old enough' to make the choice for themselves?

 

[Belz...]

What age? Onset of puberty? That isn't all that young.

Still too young for children to understand their sexuality and gender fully. Hell, before 25 it's often hard enough for them.

 

[theprestige]

What age? Onset of puberty? That isn't all that young.

Depends how you look at it. As a point in a particular developmental process, it's pretty young. The major development into maturity is still ahead.

As a percentage of an average human lifespan it's... I dunno? Entirely subjective?

 

[ponderingturtle]

What age? Onset of puberty? That isn't all that young.

What is the "child abuse" in allowing a child who has been determined through the treatment of clinicians to be very likely transgender to use reversible androgen blocking therapy to delay that puberty until society has deemed them 'old enough' to make the choice for themselves?

And yet when the child assertion matches the societal mold we don't question their competence to make such a statement.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you think that reversibly postponing puberty until a child reaches a socially acceptable age of majority so that their bodies don't make an irreversible choice for them is child abuse?

Because that is what is done by any reputable therapists and endocrinologists in the field. They are prescribed androgen blockers which delay a change which all evidence shows that they do not want. And even that is not done casually.

Prepubescent children do not know what the changes caused by puberty are like, and cannot know until they experience it. Their opinions about not wanting to go through those changes are uninformed. Delaying the choice through androgen blockers doesn't solve the problem, because while they may be older at a later date, they still won't be informed because the only way to truly get informed is to go through the process.

Transgenderism isn't some new fad. It has existed and has largely been accepted by most non-Judaic cultures for all of history. The dysphoria isn't a result of being transgender. It is a result of the social strictures forced on the transgendered by social systems which are intent on finding them somehow broken or even abominations.

Uh... no. Social systems can place additional stresses on those with gender dysphoria, but if you don't have gender dysphoria, the feeling that your body should be of a different sex than it actually is, then there's no drive to be transgender.

Just because someone is a child does not mean that their evaluations of themselves are without merit and can be casually dismissed.

Casually dismissed? No, we should not casually dismiss it. But nor should we automatically defer to it. The fact that they are a child is absolutely relevant to how capable they are of making proper choices. We recognize this in most areas of life. It's not improper to recognize it here either.

It is 'child abuse' to force them to be trapped in a body they detest when there is no significant physiological cost in preventing that.

Especially when compared to the psychological costs implicit in refusing such treatment.

You say that like there's no psychological cost to the treatment. I don't think that's even remotely safe to assume.