Trans Women are not Women

[Hungry81]

And when top tier runners start chopping their legs off and "transitioning" to cloned bio-mechanical titanium velociraptor legs or whatever we can worry about it.



The Paralympics exist because we all get to accept that "disabled" means what it does. We cushion it in a lot of metaphor and euphemism but all get that it means "less abled."



When a person's self identity is defined as belonging to a certain group creating a third group for them is not going to be a viable option.



To (many) transgender people being told to go off and form a third group to keep everything "fair" is going to be like telling a slow runner that he'd be better off competing in the wheelchair division.

Or telling a slow runner that unfortunately he doesn't have what it takes and is cut from the team.

If the slow runner then starts whinging about being oppressed by his genetics and society and demanding to be able to compete against woman and children while taking performance enhacing medicine to become the record breaking sprinter he knows he is inside, and that he is going to be incredibly sad and depressed if no one accepts him in this manner, what do you say to him? especially as phil/phyllis runs past training for the womans division.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

For me, the biggest problem with trans gender related discussions is the lack of concern by advocates that people who wish to pursue a transgender life and are encouraged to do so are not as well off as people who wish to pursue a transgender life that are counseled that there is no medical method to accomplish what they wish and they should seriously consider that what they want is impossible.

But there is - at least as much as breast enlargement, hair transplants, and many other attempts to change human anatomy. Even heart transplants are 'impossible' without the body being constantly pumped with drugs to prevent it from rejecting the foreign organ - yet for some reason we don't think of the recipients as being Frankenstein-like monsters.

As medical technology improves your complaint will become totally invalid, and then where will you stand? Eventually we may be able to change our genetic makeup at will - then the bigots will really freak out.

 

[Strawberry]

But there is - at least as much as breast enlargement, hair transplants, and many other attempts to change human anatomy. Even heart transplants are 'impossible' without the body being constantly pumped with drugs to prevent it from rejecting the foreign organ - yet for some reason we don't think of the recipients as being Frankenstein-like monsters.

As medical technology improves your complaint will become totally invalid, and then where will you stand? Eventually we may be able to change our genetic makeup at will - then the bigots will really freak out.

Breast enlargements, hair transplants etc do accomplish what the recipient wishes because their wishes are entirely superficial. Heart transplants accomplish what the recipient wishes because they keep them alive.


There is no medical way to turn a man into a woman or vice versa. If medical technology ever does advance to the stage where that becomes possible we can then revisit the issue of transwomen in sports, but for now they shouldn't be allowed to compete with the girls.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Men are far, far stronger than women on average. In the bench press, for example, an untrained man can be almost three times as strong as a woman of similar body weight, with advanced male athletes being around 60% stronger than females. The same is broadly true for all strength measures.

And?

Sport

Sport includes all forms of competitive physical activity or games which, through casual or organised participation, aim to use, maintain or improve physical ability and skills while providing enjoyment to participants, and in some cases, entertainment for spectators.

In many sports physical strength is not the main component, and in some excess strength could even be a detriment. But whether it is important or not for a particular sport is up to those who compete in and organize it.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Breast enlargements, hair transplants etc do accomplish what the recipient wishes because their wishes are entirely superficial...There is no medical way to turn a man into a woman or vice versa.

But psychologically they are women (or men) and it's only the 'superficial' features they want to change - just like a woman who wants to appear more 'female' or an insecure man trying to subvert his genes by putting hair where it shouldn't be.

but for now they shouldn't be allowed to compete with the girls.

Again, that's not for you to decide. If 'girls' and 'trans-girls' are happy competing against each other then why not let them?

 

[baron]

And?

Sport


In many sports physical strength is not the main component, and in some excess strength could even be a detriment. But whether it is important or not for a particular sport is up to those who compete in and organize it.

You're the one who brought it up:

"Men may be stronger than women on average, but people come in all sizes and physiques, both male and female."

I'm saying that it's pretty much moot what sizes and physiques we're talking about, a man is almost always stronger than a woman. Men are also faster than women and outperform women in almost every sporting metric you care to mention. That's why we have women's sport and men's sport. If we had just sports, women would be restricted to dressage and gymnastics.

 

[Strawberry]

But psychologically they are women (or men) and it's only the 'superficial' features they want to change - just like a woman who wants to appear more 'female' or an insecure man trying to subvert his genes by putting hair where it shouldn't be.

Again, that's not for you to decide. If 'girls' and 'trans-girls' are happy competing against each other then why not let them?

Biologically they are not women, and changing the superficials does not make them so.

Girls are in many cases not happy competing against trans girls, and in some sports they are not safe doing so either.

 

[Ziggurat]

But psychologically they are women (or men) and it's only the 'superficial' features they want to change

Your skeletal structure is not a superficial feature, and you cannot change it from male to female via surgery.

 

[Ziggurat]

In many sports physical strength is not the main component, and in some excess strength could even be a detriment.

In almost every sport, physical strength is an advantage, even if just a small one. In no sport is physical strength a disadvantage.

In some sports, factors such as increased body weight which are associated with increased strength can be a disadvantage, but it is not the strength itself which is disadvantageous.

 

[cullennz]

But psychologically they are women (or men) and it's only the 'superficial' features they want to change - just like a woman who wants to appear more 'female' or an insecure man trying to subvert his genes by putting hair where it shouldn't be.

Again, that's not for you to decide. If 'girls' and 'trans-girls' are happy competing against each other then why not let them?

"A lot of "girls" aren't happy having to compete with 'trans-girls"

 

[The Atheist]

Again, that's not for you to decide. If 'girls' and 'trans-girls' are happy competing against each other then why not let them?

That's not the case, though, women are not happy about it at all.

Here are just a couple of examples:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/f...ns-woman-blasts-definitely-unfair-competition

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other...laurel-hubbard-banned-from-commonwealth-games

And when an organisation does step up to protect its women athletes, they're bigots: https://www.news.com.au/sport/sport...g/news-story/c6a26b686bd10397990a66cce80b3dd5

This is a woman, according to the IOC: https://bleacherreport.com/articles...6-womens-800m-medal-winners-times-and-results

 

[Puppycow]

That's not the case, though, women are not happy about it at all.

Here are just a couple of examples:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/f...ns-woman-blasts-definitely-unfair-competition

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other...laurel-hubbard-banned-from-commonwealth-games

And when an organisation does step up to protect its women athletes, they're bigots: https://www.news.com.au/sport/sport...g/news-story/c6a26b686bd10397990a66cce80b3dd5

This is a woman, according to the IOC: https://bleacherreport.com/articles...6-womens-800m-medal-winners-times-and-results

Why did you throw Caster Semenya in there at the end? She is not a "trans woman", she was born that way and it says "female" on her birth certificate. She may have a rare genetic condition, but she's not a bloke who decided at some point to "transition", she just is how she was born and what her genes make her.

 

[Ziggurat]

This is a woman, according to the IOC: https://bleacherreport.com/articles...6-womens-800m-medal-winners-times-and-results

Caster Semenya is a different issue. She isn't transgender. Her exact medical condition isn't public, and she may have some intersex traits, but she's not a transgender athlete. Whatever any sporting body decides to do about her status, it likely won't have very wide spread effect, because she's a far, far more unusual case, one that can't be replicated by choice.

 

[mgidm86]

Replace men and women categories with Strong and Weak.

You try out and then get placed where you belong. That way men can enjoy beating the crap out of women in MMA all they want, because that's what will happen. It already is.

Or maybe these people who don't fit in can make their own categories instead of trying to destroy all sports? Kinda like the PGA Senior tour, or the Special Olympics, or amateur sports, or everyone else in the gawdamn world who isn't a top athlete.

No, everyone is special! I believed Mister Rogers when he told me I was special when I was 4, and I still think I am. I do not expect anyone else to though and I live my life accordingly.

So !!!

 

[davefoc]

...

As medical technology improves your complaint [that it is not now possible to medically change a man into a woman]will become totally invalid, and then where will you stand? Eventually we may be able to change our genetic makeup at will - then the bigots will really freak out.

It is plausible that it will never be possible to change a man into a woman. It is certainly not possible today which is what I meant in the post that you responded to.


A few comments on this issue:
1. I don't know what it is like to form a belief that one is mentally a different sex than they are. I identified as male early and I always assumed I identified as a male because I was a male and not because I wanted to be a male. This doesn't mean I reject the feelings of people who believe that they aren't mentally the sex they were born, but it is difficult to understand when I can't understand this mental drive to be a particular sex. I think I could be happy as a woman if I happened to be a woman.


2. I worry in these kind of threads that something I say might upset somebody that has seriously gone down the path of living life as a different sex than the one they were born. I would like to make clear that I don't know that there is any value in my thoughts about this kind of thing and regardless I wish somebody that has decided to transition their sex a good and happy life.


3. As I mentioned above it seems to me that men that decide to live much of their lives as women are making a reasoned decision to follow a particular life style . Men can wear women's clothes and behave in ways they see as feminine. If it makes them happy great for them. What I am unsure of is whether the decision to go further and get highly invasive surgery that will not succeed in making the person going through this into the opposite sex is good for the person having it done. In a world where people are falling over themselves to be politically correct on this issue, are the people seeking operations to change their sex missing a coldly candid assessment of the impossibility of what they desire so strongly?

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Or telling a slow runner that unfortunately he doesn't have what it takes and is cut from the team.

Seems to be an argument for doing away with women's sports completely. I mean if they aren't capable of competing with the best in the field then that's just their genetics and tough luck. Right?

 

[ponderingturtle]

I think they missed an obvious 4th option

Just have another category

Men, women, trans

And of course cis women who fail the medical gender tests.

 

[sadhatter]

Nobody said anything about attaching a stigma.

Being a woman isn't a disability. But maybe suffering from gender dysphoria is a disability.

If you're cismale, and an athlete, and competing in the men's division causes you psychological suffering, is that a disability? If the only thing that mitigates your suffering is being allowed to compete as a woman in the women's division, is that a disability?

And if that's the only way to treat your condition, does it really make sense to deny you that option? Does it really help you in any way to have a non-cisgendered division for you to compete in?

Sport isn't therapy for trans people, it's sport, you don't get to take it over because life sucks.

 

[Strawberry]

Seems to be an argument for doing away with women's sports completely. I mean if they aren't capable of competing with the best in the field then that's just their genetics and tough luck. Right?

Right.

Women are smaller, weaker and slower than men so we should do what exactly? Cease to exist?

Good luck with the childbirth and breastfeeding boys.

 

[Belz...]

This is one thing me and you seem to (mostly) be on the same wavelength on.

Like you I do completely accept that... what Transpeople are trying to get across to society is a legit thing that exists. Stepping back from the labels some form of gender disparage is a thing that people can have.

I just think that, probably through no ill will or bad intention, the concept there were trying to get across solidifying into "identifying as the other gender" took the discussion and the movement (for lack of a better term) to... a less than ideal place. And now that's become the "standard" way of looking at it and as evidenced here it doesn't really... work.

These people absolutely deserve our respect and support and love. But we aren't beholden to conceptualizing it exactly as they do in order to achieve that.

According to some posters here, that means you want trans people to be subjected to bullying until they commit suicide.