The Trump Presidency 13: The (James) Baker's Dozen

[Ziggurat]

Because, even if the courts rule that the National Emergency Act, as written, gives the president discretion to decide what's an emergency, immediately admitting that it isn't really an emergency is admitting that that's not at all what he's doing.

If the president can define what constitutes an emergency (because the law doesn't define it), then that definition can diverge from the common definition. You're depending on the common definition still holding, but that may not be the case. And even supposing courts decide on some definition of emergency which doesn't include this one, that doesn't mean all the other active emergencies fit that court-determined definition.

So far, the only unambiguous distinguishing feature of Trump's emergency is the lack of deference to his authority in declaring it. But that's an extrinsic quality, not an intrinsic one.

 

[Belz...]

And is that the only basis on which you're capable of evaluating declared emergencies?

Nobody said it's the only basis for evaluating emergencies. What I said, clearly, was that Trump telling us it wasn't an emergency, in this case, told us that this isn't an emergency.

This isn't a partisan issue.

 

[jimbob]

And is that the only basis on which you're capable of evaluating declared emergencies?

Nobody said it's the only basis for evaluating emergencies. What I said, clearly, was that Trump telling us it wasn't an emergency, in this case, told us that this isn't an emergency.

This isn't a partisan issue.

Beat me to stating the obvious.

And this is someone who regards Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez as not smart.

’ll give you telegenic, and the bar is evidently low for articulate, but smart? Yeah, I’m not the one smoking strange stuff.

I'm not sure this exchange does much for that assessment

 

[Tero]

Trump Retweets

JT Lewis
‏Verified account
@thejtlewis
With the utmost respect, I thank President @realDonaldTrump for his leadership on the Federal School Safety Report, and for including my ideas. This is the most progress we, as a Country, have ever made toward School Safety!

Andrew Pollack
‏Verified account
@AndrewPollackFL
You'll never get the full story from the media, but since the moment I lost my beautiful princess last year in Parkland, President @realDonaldTrump has been gracious & 110% supportive of my family. Anytime I've asked for help, he has delivered. GREAT President! #FixIt

RD
@real_defender
13h13 hours ago
Our country is making unprecedented progress thanks to the fact that we finally have a president who is keeping his promises and putting America first.

So like, we have to recite the pledge of allegiance again? I have not done that since 8th grade. I mastered lipsyncing it then. I can learn that again.

 

[Ladewig]

I don't know how someone with the sort of mental illness that Trump has is likely to behave when put under severe stress, when given access to nuclear weapons. I can think of some people, like David Koresh, who preferred infamy and death to ignominy and life.

Yes!
I shudder to think what President Trump would do if faced with something like the Hainan Island incident in which a US surveillance plane in international waters was struck by a hot-dogging Chinese fighter pilot and was forced to land at the nearest airstrip. Unfortunately, that was a Chinese military base. It took more than a week of behind the scenes negotiations to get the two dozen Americans returned.

I am doubtful that President Trump would handle such a slow-moving crisis very smoothly.

The fact that his behaviour is so abnormal and getting stranger should be enough to require an independent, clinical psychologist, to examine whether he is fit for the job, or whether he is likely to go postal.

I think it is a good idea. I’m not sure all the folks who continuously tell us how beautiful the Emperor’s new clothes are would go along with a plan that might result in a determiniation that our ruler is naked.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I realize that politics are divisive, but can we please join together in harmony to agree we shouldn't be invited to visualize a nude Trump?

 

[newyorkguy]

Most of the National Emergencies still in effect involve "Blocking Property and Suspending Entry of Certain Persons" that are (or were) contributing to conflicts in Somalia, Yemen, Ukraine, South Sudan, etc. Obama enacted thirteen, Bush twelve. None are anything remotely close to what Trump is doing. Below is a link to a CNN news article that lists them all.

CNN link

We seem to have gotten stuck with what appears to me to be a right-wing meme. That the emergency Trump's declaring is no different than the other emergencies that have been declared. That seems false to me. Trump's action seems very different. Below, from the link I posted last night, I'm copying the list of emergencies President Obama declared during his presidency that remain in effect.

• Blocking Property of Certain Persons Contributing to the Conflict in Somalia (Apr. 12, 2010)
• Blocking Property and Prohibiting Certain Transactions Related to Libya (Feb. 25, 2011)
• Blocking Property of Transnational Criminal Organizations (Jul. 25, 2011)
• Blocking Property of Persons Threatening the Peace, Security, or Stability of Yemen (May 16, 2012)
• Blocking Property of Certain Persons Contributing to the Situation in Ukraine (Mar. 6, 2014)
• Blocking Property of Certain Persons With Respect to South Sudan (Apr. 3, 2014)
• Blocking Property of Certain Persons Contributing to the Conflict in the Central African Republic (May 12, 2014)
• Blocking Property and Suspending Entry of Certain Persons Contributing to the Situation in Venezuela (Mar. 9, 2015)
• Blocking Property of Certain Persons Engaging in Significant Malicious Cyber-Enabled Activities (Apr. 1, 2015)
• Blocking Property of Certain Persons Contributing to the Situation in Burundi (Nov. 23, 2015)

The action, blocking property, is part of a well-established procedure that relates to property the individuals own or possess in the United States or that is under U.S. control. The executive order means the property "may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in" by the persons or organizations named in the order.

How is this "exactly the same" as Trump taking money from various U.S. agencies to build a wall after Congress said no?

 

[phiwum]

Nobody said it's the only basis for evaluating emergencies. What I said, clearly, was that Trump telling us it wasn't an emergency, in this case, told us that this isn't an emergency.

This isn't a partisan issue.

It's not clear to me why Zig is refusing to clarify his point, such as it is. He was responding to this.

And yet this is the only one that is contrived.

Zig isn't denying that the current emergency is a farce (at least not in this latest exchange). He's focusing on the rather dull question of whether this is the only such farce.

Of course, Ziggurat, the criticism here has less to do with whether or not previous claimed emergencies deserved to be called such, but whether this one does. And a remarkable feature of the current declaration is this: Congress explicitly refused to grant money for building a wall and the emergency is simply a way to thwart the will of Congress. I feel pretty confident that a national emergency has never been used thus before.

 

[timhau]

Which one? There are now 32 active National Emergencies. Seven of them are old enough to drink, and one of them is old enough to become President.

... which he did.

 

[Ziggurat]

Nobody said it's the only basis for evaluating emergencies.

Actually, they are, though perhaps not intentionally. Let's backtrack for a moment:

And yet this is the only [National Emergency] that is contrived.

How would you know?

Well, the fact that Trump said he didn't need to do it, was a bit of a giveaway.

The claim that this National Emergency is the only contrived National Emergency has two components which must both be true: Trump's emergency must be contrived, and none of the other emergencies can be contrived. The argument that Trump's statement demonstrates acbytesla's claim depends upon Trump's statement satisfying both components. But it cannot possibly demonstrate that none of the other emergencies are contrived, unless statements by the president are the only method for evaluating an emergency.

 

[jimbob]

We seem to have gotten stuck with what appears to me to be a right-wing meme. That the emergency Trump's declaring is no different than the other emergencies that have been declared. That seems false to me. Trump's action seems very different. Below, from the link I posted last night, I'm copying the list of emergencies President Obama declared during his presidency that remain in effect.



The action, blocking property, is part of a well-established procedure that relates to property the individuals own or possess in the United States or that is under U.S. control. The executive order means the property "may not be transferred, paid, exported, withdrawn, or otherwise dealt in" by the persons or organizations named in the order.

How is this "exactly the same" as Trump taking money from various U.S. agencies to build a wall after Congress said no?

There is also the difference between ones that are uncontroversial, and using that power because it's the quickest way to achieve something that both sides agree on and something that's so controversial that even the person claiming the emergency, also claimed they didn't need to use the emergency powers.

 

[JoeMorgue]

How is this "exactly the same" as Trump taking money from various U.S. agencies to build a wall after Congress said no?

This.

Here's a handy quick cheat sheet for why it is different to anyone still having problems with it.

In every single other National Emergency, the emergency wasn't "another part of the United States Government isn't doing what I want it to do."

Even when Nixon used one in 1970 to replace striking postal workers with military members in order to maintain the nations mail system he only did it for 8 days and continue to actually negotiate with the strike leaders the entire time and the entire affair ended without a single mail employee being fired.

 

[Ziggurat]

... which he did.

 

[jimbob]

Nobody said it's the only basis for evaluating emergencies.

Actually, they are, though perhaps not intentionally. Let's backtrack for a moment:

And yet this is the only [National Emergency] that is contrived.

How would you know?

Well, the fact that Trump said he didn't need to do it, was a bit of a giveaway.

The claim that this National Emergency is the only contrived National Emergency has two components which must both be true: Trump's emergency must be contrived, and none of the other emergencies can be contrived. The argument that Trump's statement demonstrates acbytesla's claim depends upon Trump's statement satisfying both components. But it cannot possibly demonstrate that none of the other emergencies are contrived, unless statements by the president are the only method for evaluating an emergency.

Er no

It is not a necessary condition to show that but it is a sufficient condition.

 

[Ziggurat]

Er no

Er yes

 

[Belz...]

I realize that politics are divisive, but can we please join together in harmony to agree we shouldn't be invited to visualize a nude Trump?

Come on, TM. He's the healthiest and most muscular President in the history of the universe. Picture that!

 

[Belz...]

Actually, they are, though perhaps not intentionally. Let's backtrack for a moment:

That quote doesn't support your claim.

That something is a dead giveway doesn't mean that it's the only way to tell.

Stop reaching and give me an answer: do you think that this emergency is a real one?

 

[Stacko]

Flynn-backed plan to transfer nuclear tech to Saudis may have broken laws, say whistleblowers

Whistleblowers from within President Donald Trump's National Security Council have told a congressional committee that efforts by former national security adviser Michael Flynn to transfer sensitive nuclear technology to Saudi Arabia may have violated the law, and investigators fear Trump is still considering it, according to a new report obtained by NBC News.

The House Oversight Committee has formally opened an investigation into the matter, releasing an interim staff report that adds new details to previous public accounts of how Flynn sought to push through the nuclear proposal on behalf of a group he had once advised. Tom Barrack, a prominent Trump backer with business ties to the Middle East, also became involved in the project, the report says.

Just days after Trump's inauguration, backers of the project sent documents to Flynn for Trump to approve, including a draft Cabinet memo stating that the president had appointed Barrack as a special representative to implement the plan and directing agencies to support Barrack's efforts, the report says.

Career national security officials objected to the plan, citing what they deemed Flynn's conflict of interest, and also that the proposal sought to bypass a policy review that is required whenever nuclear technology is transferred to another country, the report says.

 

[acbytesla]

Actually, they are, though perhaps not intentionally. Let's backtrack for a moment:

The claim that this National Emergency is the only contrived National Emergency has two components which must both be true: Trump's emergency must be contrived, and none of the other emergencies can be contrived. The argument that Trump's statement demonstrates acbytesla's claim depends upon Trump's statement satisfying both components. But it cannot possibly demonstrate that none of the other emergencies are contrived, unless statements by the president are the only method for evaluating an emergency.

Give us an example of other Presidentially contrived National Emergencies. Where after Congress decided NOT to authorize funds for a specific priority.

Let's look at how this opens Pandora's box. A Democratic President could authorize funds for implementing environmental protection that Congress said no to by declaring a "National Emergency".

 

[Mumbles]

Uh-huh.

And folks are aligning against Sanders.

As expected.

Again, all I can say is that Dolt 45 is the actual opponent. If Bernie Sanders is the candidate, fine. If it's Kamalah Harris, get out and vote. Corey booker, or whoever else...better than that trash we have as president now.

ETA: This is your time to start raising objections to other candidates...