Balancing Skepticism and Faith

[kellyb]

That's just Pascal's Wager. How does he know he's going to to the right church?

He's not trying to avoid hell or punishment. He's been driving his wife to Mass an hour away for forever, since she's Catholic, and he usually goes and eats a bagel while she's there, but since he's recently started having some medical problem, he figures maybe there's some chance, however small, that joining her at mass will result in a miraculous healing.

It's a total nothing of a story, and I have no idea how this made it into the WaPo.

 

[arthwollipot]

He's not trying to avoid hell or punishment. He's been driving his wife to Mass an hour away for forever, since she's Catholic, and he usually goes and eats a bagel while she's there, but since he's recently started having some medical problem, he figures maybe there's some chance, however small, that joining her at mass will result in a miraculous healing.

It's a total nothing of a story, and I have no idea how this made it into the WaPo.

Okay, fair enough. Bad me for not actually reading the article.

 

[Minoosh]

That's just Pascal's Wager. How does he know he's going to to the right church?

My summary sounds like Pascal's Wager, but he didn't mean it would keep him out of hell. He likes the meet and greet, thinks maybe his presence pleases his wife and thinks that talking with a higher power gives some people purpose in life. He used that word,"purpose," without further explanation. I thought it was an odd choice.

If anyone is rationing their WaPo hits, pass this up for reporting that matters. In the other thread re: mental health I've seen more convincing arguments than his for engaging in spiritual practices.

ETA: Ninja'd. And kellyb is right, it was a nothing column. I thought it would be more interesting than it was.

 

[attempt5001]

That's Catholics. The OP is some sort of protestant non-denominational "charismatic"-ish generic Christian, I think.

ETA:
I went through a kind of non-denominational "charismatic"-ish generic Christian phase towards the end of my journey in Christianity, and I didn't really believe in hell. I figured an all-loving wouldn't torture anybody for eternity. The Bible's kinda sketchy on the topic of hell, anyway, if one bothers to actually read it, which I did. Quite religiously. LOL

Laugh. Pretty good description kellyb Grew up in an old dusty anglican church and intended not to keep that up past adolescence, but got involved in youth work (as an older youth myself) and enjoyed encouraging the teens and pre-teens through the usual (and unusual) ups and downs of young life. Ended up getting connected with a more lively group in my early twenties. Lots of fun and raucous music (I played the drums) and people who cared about each other and the secular community around them as well. A nice group as I've mentioned and a helpful sense of belonging in the transition into young adulthood. Not a political group in the least and very little talk of hell or damnation. It's very easy for me to understand how someone can go a long time without questioning the faith that underpins a community like that.

 

[kellyb]

Laugh. Pretty good description kellyb Grew up in an old dusty anglican church and intended not to keep that up past adolescence, but got involved in youth work (as an older youth myself) and enjoyed encouraging the teens and pre-teens through the usual (and unusual) ups and downs of young life. Ended up getting connected with a more lively group in my early twenties. Lots of fun and raucous music (I played the drums) and people who cared about each other and the secular community around them as well. A nice group as I've mentioned and a helpful sense of belonging in the transition into young adulthood. Not a political group in the least and very little talk of hell or damnation. It's very easy for me to understand how someone can go a long time without questioning the faith that underpins a community like that.

I grew up Southern Baptist, and I do hold some really strong negative ideas and feelings about that whole universe.

But the final church I landed in (long) after going apostate on conservative Christianity was cool. In spite of the fact that some of them "spoke in tongues", it was overall quite sane. I think only people who've been charismatics at that sort of "theologically gentle" church can understand what I mean by that, heh. And the music was phenomenal. The band "Waterdeep" (if you ever heard of them) played there sometimes.

 

[HansMustermann]

Mainstream protestants generally believe (and have always believed, AFAIK) that before some "age of accountability", everyone is default "saved". You have to be old enough to sin and know what you did was wrong for the curse of hell to apply. That age is generally assumed to be around 12 or 13, but with variation for the mentally disables, etc, who might never be capable of "sin".

I can't say I've studied all the two thousand or so flavours of protestantism, but I'm fairly sure that for the Baptists too it's that unbaptized babies go to hell. Though Calvin did rail against that doctrine, so I would assume at least Calvinism would go with your version. Others, well, your mileage may or may not vary.

That said, I would think that the kind of doctrine you describe can only be taken to one logical conclusion: if you love your kids and would do anything to make sure they go to heaven -- and what parent wouldn't? -- MURDER THEM. Seriously, not only that kid may fall in with some atheist crowd later, but I'm pretty sure that most protestant theologians are in agreement that even most Xians don't make the cut to go to heaven. So by sheer chance alone, well... let's put it like this: you may think that your kid is your little angel, well, so was Lucifer. Even God had a few kids go to hell, and you're not presuming to proclaim you're better at educating kids than God, right? Just saying. So if you want them to spend eternity in heaven, murderize the hell out of them early and hard

 

[kellyb]

I can't say I've studied all the two thousand or so flavours of protestantism, but I'm fairly sure that for the Baptists too it's that unbaptized babies go to hell.

Nope.
https://sbcvoices.com/the-age-or-state-of-accountability-and-original-sin-one-baptist’s-perspective/

Dr. Steve Lemke of the New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary is currently writing a series of posts entitled “Distinctive Baptist Beliefs.” While pointing out the many bridges between Baptists and Presbyterian traditions, he is seeking to also provide a series of distinctives that separate Baptists from our Presbyterian brethren.
The second distinctive concerns the age/state of accountability—a theological idea more readily recognized in the question, “What happens to babies when they die?”

Many in both traditions posit that infants (and people, such as those who suffer from severe mental retardation, who are incapable of exercising faith) go to heaven when they die.

While it may be more of a ‘state’ of being accountable rather than an ‘age’ of accountability…this state of accountability is normally associated with a ‘coming of age.’ No specific age is given; it is assumed that individual children mature at different paces from each other. By affirming the age of accountability, Baptists deny that children are guilty upon birth, and so deny the need for infant baptism.

----

That said, I would think that the kind of doctrine you describe can only be taken to one logical conclusion: if you love your kids and would do anything to make sure they go to heaven -- and what parent wouldn't? -- MURDER THEM. Seriously, not only that kid may fall in with some atheist crowd later, but I'm pretty sure that most protestant theologians are in agreement that even most Xians don't make the cut to go to heaven. So by sheer chance alone, well... let's put it like this: you may think that your kid is your little angel, well, so was Lucifer. Even God had a few kids go to hell, and you're not presuming to proclaim you're better at educating kids than God, right? Just saying. So if you want them to spend eternity in heaven, murderize the hell out of them early and hard

They worship a malicious god, and he won't give them permission to murder their kids. The monster might just make an exception there and send the kid to hell just to spite them.

Something like that.

"Disobedience to god always makes things worse".

 

[8enotto]

All that died before (with the exception of the one shot dead over a drug deal) were spoken of as "in heaven now".
Or so the direct family reassured each other. Nobody seems to even have considered any other option.
Not the baby nor the drunk with a spotty past of violence.

Doctrine did not matter in the end at any funeral I attended. So why should we worry about it before we die? Why even question it for the most part?

If someone loves you in life they put you in heaven.

 

[xjx388]

All that died before (with the exception of the one shot dead over a drug deal) were spoken of as "in heaven now".
Or so the direct family reassured each other. Nobody seems to even have considered any other option.
Not the baby nor the drunk with a spotty past of violence.

Doctrine did not matter in the end at any funeral I attended. So why should we worry about it before we die? Why even question it for the most part?

If someone loves you in life they put you in heaven.

Just about everyone has a chance at heaven if we believe funerals. You never hear the Priest (or whatever) say, “We all know Johnny cheated on his wife and married seven times, so, yeah; Johnny’s smoking a turd in Hell right now. Praise be.”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[attempt5001]

I grew up Southern Baptist, and I do hold some really strong negative ideas and feelings about that whole universe.

But the final church I landed in (long) after going apostate on conservative Christianity was cool. In spite of the fact that some of them "spoke in tongues", it was overall quite sane. I think only people who've been charismatics at that sort of "theologically gentle" church can understand what I mean by that, heh. And the music was phenomenal. The band "Waterdeep" (if you ever heard of them) played there sometimes.

Hi kellyb, sounds like we've had a fairly similar route in some respects. I definitely know what you mean by a very sane, charismatic group, though from the outside that may seem impossible. People who encourage one another, have peaceful households, are kind and generous. I like that kind of sanity And yes, I know Waterdeep and have played several of their songs as part of the music group. Some really nice songs.

 

[kellyb]

Hi kellyb, sounds like we've had a fairly similar route in some respects. I definitely know what you mean by a very sane, charismatic group, though from the outside that may seem impossible. People who encourage one another, have peaceful households, are kind and generous. I like that kind of sanity And yes, I know Waterdeep and have played several of their songs as part of the music group. Some really nice songs.

I sang in the church's music group, and we had most songs from Enter the Worship Circle in rotation. You are So Good to Me was the first song I ever learned on guitar, too.
The church I went to was located in an abandoned strip mall in a sort of sketchy part of town, for the cheap rent. The pastor worked at Home Depot full time, and his house was always open to random homeless people. Most tithe money went to stuff like buying tents and other supplies for homeless people, , the food bank, or helping a congregation member in need after some unforeseen misfortune. The pastor was never very into telling us what to believe about anything - he would always just advise us to "pray about it" when it came to pretty much any theological question of controversy. I guess he had a "leadership via humility" theory of what it means to be a pastor. It was a really nice group of people. We were really into E Stanley Jones' "the kingdom of god is here and now" theology. Many members considered Jones an "apostle" (even thought he would have taken issue with that if he were still alive, lol)

 

[xterra]

Hi kellyb, sounds like we've had a fairly similar route in some respects. I definitely know what you mean by a very sane, charismatic group, though from the outside that may seem impossible. People who encourage one another, have peaceful households, are kind and generous. I like that kind of sanity And yes, I know Waterdeep and have played several of their songs as part of the music group. Some really nice songs.

This thread, as the other one, has wandered just about everywhere it could. I would like to know what you have learned from it, or what opinions or beliefs you have had confirmed or refuted.

Have you found that you are moving closer to your faith, or farther away from religion?

Has the conversation helped you, hindered you, left you confused, or what? ETA, or all of the above?

 

[Minoosh]

Just about everyone has a chance at heaven if we believe funerals. You never hear the Priest (or whatever) say, "We all know Johnny cheated on his wife and married seven times, so, yeah; Johnny’s smoking a turd in Hell right now. Praise be."

Interesting choice of name. I have been browsing around YouTube looking for an interview with Johnny Cash, who had at that point decided that everybody goes to heaven. I can't find the clip, but he clearly had rejected the concept of hell.

 

[attempt5001]

I sang in the church's music group, and we had most songs from Enter the Worship Circle in rotation. You are So Good to Me was the first song I ever learned on guitar, too.
The church I went to was located in an abandoned strip mall in a sort of sketchy part of town, for the cheap rent. The pastor worked at Home Depot full time, and his house was always open to random homeless people. Most tithe money went to stuff like buying tents and other supplies for homeless people, , the food bank, or helping a congregation member in need after some unforeseen misfortune. The pastor was never very into telling us what to believe about anything - he would always just advise us to "pray about it" when it came to pretty much any theological question of controversy. I guess he had a "leadership via humility" theory of what it means to be a pastor. It was a really nice group of people. We were really into E Stanley Jones' "the kingdom of god is here and now" theology. Many members considered Jones an "apostle" (even thought he would have taken issue with that if he were still alive, lol)

Cool. Yeah, I can definitely relate to all of that as well, right down to the emphasis on "the kingdom of God is here and now" and the use of the term "apostle" (and prophets and evangelists and pastors and teachers).

Would love to hear more about your transition away from the church if you're willing to share.

 

[attempt5001]

This thread, as the other one, has wandered just about everywhere it could. I would like to know what you have learned from it, or what opinions or beliefs you have had confirmed or refuted.

Have you found that you are moving closer to your faith, or farther away from religion?

Has the conversation helped you, hindered you, left you confused, or what? ETA, or all of the above?

Sure. I've appreciated the thread a lot (though I skipped most of the bits about historical conflicts between scientific leaders and church hierarchy). I've concurrently been having similar discussions with friends and family in real life that have also been helpful.

They have definitely helped me to recognize my own christian cultural biases more clearly. They have also helped me have peace as I let go of some of them, while reminding me that I can do so with a sense of genuine gratitude for my experiences thus far. It's been helpful to hear passionately skeptical perspectives as well as that of those who are more moderate. I haven't been surprised or shocked by anything I've heard here, but it's been important for me to take the time to listen (read) and consider before responding, which is easier here than in conversation. I'll continue to "mull-over" these perspectives for some time.

I'm a pretty moderate person in life in general; tending to appreciate aspects of both sides in most debates, so I'm not surprised to see myself "balancing" similarly in this respect as well.

On a side note, I've been reminded once again that there are excellent people all around. Here's a group of strangers who I've gotten to know in some small measure and I've really appreciated the contributions that have come from every direction. It's a cool community here and it's been encouraging to become a small part of it. My thanks all-round.

 

[Darat]

Interesting choice of name. I have been browsing around YouTube looking for an interview with Johnny Cash, who had at that point decided that everybody goes to heaven. I can't find the clip, but he clearly had rejected the concept of hell.

You don't p off your paying customers. It's why the RCC had to come up with indulgences and confession. No way a priest was going to tell the local baron he wasn't getting into heaven!

 

[kellyb]

Cool. Yeah, I can definitely relate to all of that as well, right down to the emphasis on "the kingdom of God is here and now" and the use of the term "apostle" (and prophets and evangelists and pastors and teachers).

Would love to hear more about your transition away from the church if you're willing to share.

The "supernaturalism" started to get to me after a while. Like speaking in tongues, when I found it increasingly plausible that they were all (those with "the gift of tongues") basically faking it without knowing that's what they were doing, "miraculous" healings for things that tend to heal themselves, but no miracles for more serious stuff that doesn't ever normally self-heal, a few traveling "apostles" who struck me as full-on scam artists, realizing that some of my spiritual experiences were just epileptic seizures (I was diagnosed with epilepsy)...stuff like that.

It's hard to be filled with the spirit when you're battling cognitive dissonance, and I think the part of your brain that can do "faith," and the part of your brain that can do a universal sort of critical thinking are in diametric opposition.

My faith just sort of slowly evaporated over time, and I'd pray passionately and frequently for my faith's return, to no avail. Going to church became depressing.

And then one day as I was sitting there praying, I realized that quite possibly I was attempting to communicate with air above the ceiling, and how preposterous that activity was, if it was true that there was nothing out there hearing my prayers. I allowed myself to truly explore the idea of if maybe the whole thing had always been just in my head and in everyone else's head. I realized I'd been brainwashed into Christianity as a kid, and that I'd always taken god's existence as basically axiomatic.

I decided that if a good and benevolent god existed, He would be fine with me just sort of starting over on the religion question and looking for Him from the perspective of an agnostic/atheist.

 

[attempt5001]

The "supernaturalism" started to get to me after a while. Like speaking in tongues, when I found it increasingly plausible that they were all (those with "the gift of tongues") basically faking it without knowing that's what they were doing, "miraculous" healings for things that tend to heal themselves, but no miracles for more serious stuff that doesn't ever normally self-heal, a few traveling "apostles" who struck me as full-on scam artists, realizing that some of my spiritual experiences were just epileptic seizures (I was diagnosed with epilepsy)...stuff like that.

It's hard to be filled with the spirit when you're battling cognitive dissonance, and I think the part of your brain that can do "faith," and the part of your brain that can do a universal sort of critical thinking are in diametric opposition.

My faith just sort of slowly evaporated over time, and I'd pray passionately and frequently for my faith's return, to no avail. Going to church became depressing.

And then one day as I was sitting there praying, I realized that quite possibly I was attempting to communicate with air above the ceiling, and how preposterous that activity was, if it was true that there was nothing out there hearing my prayers. I allowed myself to truly explore the idea of if maybe the whole thing had always been just in my head and in everyone else's head. I realized I'd been brainwashed into Christianity as a kid, and that I'd always taken god's existence as basically axiomatic.

I decided that if a good and benevolent god existed, He would be fine with me just sort of starting over on the religion question and looking for Him from the perspective of an agnostic/atheist.

Thanks kellyb. I can definitely understand and relate to a lot of that. I hope you have found ways to manage/prevent the epileptic seizures as well.

 

[ynot]

@Attempt5001 - Hi. How’s that sorting wheat from chaff thing going? More importantly, any problems identifying what is wheat and what is chaff?

 

[attempt5001]

@Attempt5001 - Hi. How’s that sorting wheat from chaff thing going? More importantly, any problems identifying what is wheat and what is chaff?

Hi ynot. Definitely not trying to take on the role of the discerning farmer myself. I'm not too sure what to make of the imagery of separation and condemnation. I do appreciate what those sorts of verses encourage towards though (e.g., Matt. 25:35 kind of thing).