Balancing Skepticism and Faith

The one thing that is sure is man has been changing "the sacred word of god" to fit 3000 years of changes to modern times.

It is relatively safe to take guidance from it but quite dangerous to take most of it literally.

To start it will tell you of a kind all loving God to a angry vindictive god for man not following the rules. But only one god and that is made clear.

Now that you cannot define his mood you must decide which is words from god unaltered by human and political ambition over 3000 years and what was altered.
Then it helps to understand who altered the sacred word and when and why. Without that you cannot even guess what it used to say.

And this is where all manner of religion failed with me. The very book guiding the flock DEMANDS blind faith in its content despite glaring contradiction and things we must ignore for legal reasons. And also in whom interprets it for you. Stonings and the right to kill your disrespectful son may be a bit off today.

Good luck A5001, you chose a path with no guide better than yourself to know the way.
 
The one thing that is sure is man has been changing "the sacred word of god" to fit 3000 years of changes to modern times.

It is relatively safe to take guidance from it but quite dangerous to take most of it literally.

To start it will tell you of a kind all loving God to a angry vindictive god for man not following the rules. But only one god and that is made clear.

Now that you cannot define his mood you must decide which is words from god unaltered by human and political ambition over 3000 years and what was altered.
Then it helps to understand who altered the sacred word and when and why. Without that you cannot even guess what it used to say.

And this is where all manner of religion failed with me. The very book guiding the flock DEMANDS blind faith in its content despite glaring contradiction and things we must ignore for legal reasons. And also in whom interprets it for you. Stonings and the right to kill your disrespectful son may be a bit off today.

Good luck A5001, you chose a path with no guide better than yourself to know the way.

Thanks 8enotto. Fair points all 'round and I appreciate the well wishes.
 
Thanks 8enotto. Fair points all 'round and I appreciate the well wishes.


8enotto's point "But only one god and that is made clear." Is one I have problems with. Many times in the OT it seems the God of Abraham has a problem with the thought that other gods are on his turf. The Ten Commandments alone are a clear indication of the mindset God has.

On the subject of The Ten Commandments what was/is your take on them? Are they a good guide or are they deficient because of the lack of sins specified? Is there an obsessive need for acknowledgement shown in the first four?
 
Thor 2 said:
On the subject of The Ten Commandments


But which version, which ten? The Hebrew version is not the same as the one that the Roman Catholics use, nor the one most Protestant churches use. (I don't know about the other how-many-hundred versions of Christianity (and the bible).)
 
Go back to Hebrew tribes in the nomadic times and monotheism was their thing in a polytheistic world.

To a Hebrew, God was the one true and the rest were false and wrong. This teaching helped them not absorb ideas of culture they came into contact with
It was of utmost importance to leadership for sure. Cannot have half the group fall off and stay strong as a tribe. The commandments came a bit later in their history and of course absorbed the old " we are right and the rest very wrong " mindset. The one god was going to get his due because his high priests were not going to lose power that easy.

The commandments were yet another version of the code of Hammurabi in Mesopotamia which not strangely had been absorbed by most cultures in the area. It was to become the base of "Christian values " also in time.

God wasn't demanding respect as much as tribal hierarchy was losing control and pulled everything about of the proverbial hat to scare the masses straight onto the path again.

What applied in Mesopotamia was very detailed as it was a city state culture. A nomadic tribe would strip off the not applicable bits and create a version for uneducated herders.

Just my understanding. Take it for that value.

I never bothered to memorize the commandments. I had to look them up. Mom wouldn't be proud. Lol!
 
But which version, which ten? The Hebrew version is not the same as the one that the Roman Catholics use, nor the one most Protestant churches use. (I don't know about the other how-many-hundred versions of Christianity (and the bible).)


Not a lot of difference between the Catholic, Lutheran, Jewish, protestant versions, but the Islamic version is something of a dog's breakfast with rambling opinions thrown in.

Given this was something inscribed by the "finger of God", one would think there would be no variation at all. He should have written it in English so the translators couldn't mess with it.:D
 
From my understanding any of the versions carry equal credibility.

I probably should have learned the RCC official version but having failed that I simply prefer the old oldest known version.
I honestly wasn't aware that minor changes had been made in recent history. Thank you for that detail.

That will be useful with the umbrellas and skirts crowd one day.
 
I think that there are Christians - in America particularly - who take the Ten Commandments entirely too seriously. I blame Cecil B. DeMille and Charlton Heston.
 
8enotto's point "But only one god and that is made clear." Is one I have problems with. Many times in the OT it seems the God of Abraham has a problem with the thought that other gods are on his turf. The Ten Commandments alone are a clear indication of the mindset God has.

On the subject of The Ten Commandments what was/is your take on them? Are they a good guide or are they deficient because of the lack of sins specified? Is there an obsessive need for acknowledgement shown in the first four?

Hi Thor 2. Yes, I know what you mean. There's lots of talk in the old testament of other gods and some (quite strange) imagery in Daniel as well. I've mostly taken this as "one true God" (capital 'G') versus idols and images of "false gods" (lower case 'g'), but whether these 'g'ods are supposed to be considered fictional, or just "lesser", I'm not sure. The text suggests the latter I think.

I think the 10 commandments are pretty consistent with the story to that point; directing a culture to see itself as "the people of God" (trying to prevent them from being influenced by other cultures of the time) and to give some basic direction towards establishing a non-self-destructive society. I've really thought of them as being especially "holy" really, even in my less generally skeptical days.
 
Hi Thor 2. Yes, I know what you mean. There's lots of talk in the old testament of other gods and some (quite strange) imagery in Daniel as well. I've mostly taken this as "one true God" (capital 'G') versus idols and images of "false gods" (lower case 'g'), but whether these 'g'ods are supposed to be considered fictional, or just "lesser", I'm not sure. The text suggests the latter I think.

I think the 10 commandments are pretty consistent with the story to that point; directing a culture to see itself as "the people of God" (trying to prevent them from being influenced by other cultures of the time) and to give some basic direction towards establishing a non-self-destructive society. I've really thought of them as being especially "holy" really, even in my less generally skeptical days.


Perhaps you meant "rarely" here?

Another topic I would like to explore with you is that of souls. The thing that separates us from animals, according to many (perhaps most) of the religious.

I've had some fun with this idea when considering how modern (evolution accepting) Christians blend this with God creation belief. How and when on the evolutionary path the fitting out with souls came about can be amusing to consider. The Devil is in the detail so to speak. ;)

Leaving that to one side I have difficulty with the concept of the soul as a separate entity to the living body. As I understand it the Catholics claim the soul comes from God and is fitted to the living being at the time of conception. Can we assume most other Christians have a similar belief?

We find ourselves in a holy mess when we go into detail about this however. Short lived souls are plentiful in the extreme, when we consider that as many as 50% of conceptions end in miscarriage*, one embryo absorbing another, and so on. The sort of reverse happens also when one potential child becomes two and we have a soul deficit.

Moving on from here let's consider what makes a person what he/she is.

If the soul is the essence of a person and that soul comes from Heaven (Newly minted), how can God blame that person for being what they are? How does God decide where to put what soul, if the environment is going to influence the positive or negative or no development thereof.

This is one of those questions that draws the "Can't understand the ways of God" type answer from those of faith I have put it too.


*This is an estimate I have read, with many would be mothers, not even knowing they were pregnant.
 
Perhaps you meant "rarely" here?

Another topic I would like to explore with you is that of souls. The thing that separates us from animals, according to many (perhaps most) of the religious.

I've had some fun with this idea when considering how modern (evolution accepting) Christians blend this with God creation belief. How and when on the evolutionary path the fitting out with souls came about can be amusing to consider. The Devil is in the detail so to speak. ;)

Leaving that to one side I have difficulty with the concept of the soul as a separate entity to the living body. As I understand it the Catholics claim the soul comes from God and is fitted to the living being at the time of conception. Can we assume most other Christians have a similar belief?

We find ourselves in a holy mess when we go into detail about this however. Short lived souls are plentiful in the extreme, when we consider that as many as 50% of conceptions end in miscarriage*, one embryo absorbing another, and so on. The sort of reverse happens also when one potential child becomes two and we have a soul deficit.

Moving on from here let's consider what makes a person what he/she is.

If the soul is the essence of a person and that soul comes from Heaven (Newly minted), how can God blame that person for being what they are? How does God decide where to put what soul, if the environment is going to influence the positive or negative or no development thereof.

This is one of those questions that draws the "Can't understand the ways of God" type answer from those of faith I have put it too.


*This is an estimate I have read, with many would be mothers, not even knowing they were pregnant.

Right. Yeah, I meant to right "never really". Thanks for catching that.

One thing that stands out to me from reading your comments is that I'm pretty confident you have given a lot more thought about the details and logical implications of Christian edicts than most Christians have. :) I remember a young skeptic challenging me many years ago about verses in genesis that seem to imply offspring-generating unions between "angels" and humans. I had never read it before and had no idea how to respond. It still makes no sense to me and even feels like an excerpt from Roman mythology that found it's way into the old testament. I bet you start a lot of conversations with Christians where you have given the topic considerable thought and they are simply responding off the cuff. It seems strange, no doubt, that someone would be so impassioned about something they have given such little thought, but I think that's the reality a lot of the time.

I was actually thinking about the whole "soul" think the last time I read through the bible from start to finish (which actually lead to a lot more questions than peace of mind). I did, at the time, actually picture a point in human evolution in which God decided to invest a "soul" (his "breath of life") into mankind, after which there emerged a new nature to their speaking and reasoning and relating (to him and to each other). This was really just a thought exercise, but interesting to ponder on a very existential level.

I'm not too familiar with official Catholic edicts and I think a number of churches wouldn't even take a strong position about any literal interpretations of the soul. I don't know for sure, but I don't think many current Christian churches would envision a a big inventory of immortal souls up in heaven being doled out into babies with some small percent chance of making their way back to heaven as a best-case scenario. I can't remember ever hearing any official teaching about this and I think many Christians (modern and historical) would say that's a question for the seminary to debate, but wouldn't give it much thought themselves. I have to admit I never did much.

Sorry, not a great answer I know. I also fall into the "believed without giving the details a lot of thought" group in many ways.
 
One thing that stands out to me from reading your comments is that I'm pretty confident you have given a lot more thought about the details and logical implications of Christian edicts than most Christians have. :) I remember a young skeptic challenging me many years ago about verses in genesis that seem to imply offspring-generating unions between "angels" and humans. I had never read it before and had no idea how to respond. It still makes no sense to me and even feels like an excerpt from Roman mythology that found it's way into the old testament.
Genesis 6:1 - 4 is what you're looking for.

And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Right before God decides to drown everyone.
 
What applied in Mesopotamia was very detailed as it was a city state culture. A nomadic tribe would strip off the not applicable bits and create a version for uneducated herders.
Hammurabi's code of law had 282 items. The Jewish laws in Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy add up to a bit over 600. Some can be interpreted as efforts to run their idea of an orderly society, telling people not to do obviously evil stuff like murder, theft, fraud/perjury, or homosexuality. Others look more like matters of maintaining the distinction between them and other people they knew of around them, lest they disappear and fade away into the background. "Those other people (down there at the coast) are the seafood-eaters, not us."

Not a lot of difference between the Catholic, Lutheran, Jewish, protestant versions, but the Islamic version is something of a dog's breakfast with rambling opinions thrown in.
Even any one Bible has three different things that could be called The Ten Commandments:
1. The first set Moses brought down & broke (contents unknown)
2. The second set he brought down & kept (survived long enough to get quoted)
3. An unrelated set found in another chapter when they weren't even at that mountain anymore, which contains a different group of laws most of which most people have never heard of, including one on the Festival Of Unleavened Bread and one about boiling meat in milk; this one is the only one the Bible itself actually calls "the ten commandments".

Go back to Hebrew tribes in the nomadic times and monotheism was their thing in a polytheistic world.

To a Hebrew, God was the one true and the rest were false and wrong.
There's lots of talk in the old testament of other gods and some (quite strange) imagery in Daniel as well. I've mostly taken this as "one true God" (capital 'G') versus idols and images of "false gods" (lower case 'g'), but whether these 'g'ods are supposed to be considered fictional, or just "lesser", I'm not sure.
The ancient Israelites/Jews/Hebrews were definitely believers in multiple gods at first, then shifted to believing in just one later (if you don't count angels & demons). But that conversion did not happen while they were still nomads; it happened after they settled.

In the Bronze Age, the speakers of Semitic languages included some groups that had settled on farms & in cities, and some groups that were still nomadic, particularly south & southeast of Canaan. They had a common pantheon, including two gods named Yahweh and ʼEl along with others. As was usually the case with Bronze Age pantheons, each town or tribe usually had a favorite god, while still believing the rest exist. ʼEl became the chief god of northern Canaan, while Yahweh became the chief god of southern Canaan and some nearby nomadic tribes.

When the chaos of the Bronze Age Collapse apparently hit the coast & lowlands of Canaan harder than the highlands, the highland population started booming and spreading down to fill in the vacuum of power in the coast & lowlands. This would appear to be the Jewish/Hebrew/Israelite conquest of Canaan, from the inside instead of the outside as the Bible depicts it, which means we need to consider Canaanite culture in the highlands before then "Proto-Israelite". It's also possible that those remaining Semitic-language-speaking nomads just outside Canaan also came into Canaan at that time and joined them, while there were empty or weakened towns to move into without needing to build new ones, which would explain both what happened to those nomads (who just vanish from history otherwise) and where the resulting population in Canaan afterward got the idea of having come in from the outside as the Bible describes. So then everybody lived in cities or on farms, no more wandering in the wild, but they were still polytheistic.

Later on, within those settled communities of Canaan, the ʼElohists and Yahwists would start diminishing the importance of the other gods, then banning worship of them, then insisting that they didn't exist while merging the last two, ʼEl and Yahweh, into one god with two names. That process was still underway when the books of the Bible were written, so it left its mark on them, despite some editors' efforts to scrub them to appear as if they'd been monotheistic all along: the Genesis reference to sons of the gods, the Babel story, the golden calf at Sinai story, the First Commandment allowing worship of other gods (just as long as you don't prioritize them above the primary god), the stories in which wizards & witches who don't serve God wield real powers anyway, the experiment on Job, the iron chariots thing, weirdly specific orders not to do stuff nobody would ever think of doing unless it was part of a religious ceremony in some other religion, the verse about not being able to sing the songs of their lord while living in exile, the purging of names with "baʻal" as part of them, and the admonitions against using asherahs (decorated trees/poles; symbols of Asherah, the wife of Yahweh/ʼEl) and even an asherah needing to be dragged out of the temple of Yahweh/ʼEl in Jerusalem. And there are archeological artifacts of the other Jewish gods from that same period, continuous with those from before when polytheism had been out in the open, indicating that people still worshipped the other gods while the Bible authors & editors acted like they didn't. It took another few hundred years for the worship of the other Jewish gods to finally really apparently cease.
 
Last edited:
Genesis 6:1 - 4 is what you're looking for.

Right before God decides to drown everyone.

Except for the giants——they show up again in Numbers 13:33.

In the verses you quoted the word translated as "giants" in v4 is "nephilim". The nephilim in Numbers 13, are the sons of Anak. ("Anak" is the modern Hebrew word for "giant").

There is no explanation given for how/why the nephilim survived The Flood.....
 
Last edited:
That history in my last post, BTW, was also the biggest single reason why I'm not a Christian, after being raised in a Christian environment. We know beyond any doubt that every single bit of it was simply made up. We can see their process of continually making it up as they went along, one more new made-up tweak after another.
 
Except for the giants——they show up again in Numbers 13:33.

In the verses you quoted the word translated as "giants" in v4 is "nephilim". The nephilim in Numbers 13, are the sons of Anak. ("Anak" is the modern Hebrew word for "giant").

There is no explanation given for how/why the nephilim survived The Flood.....
Actually there is:
https://www.chabad.org/parshah/arti...wish/Nephilim-Fallen-Angels-Giants-or-Men.htm

They and their descendants are the nephilim, the giants and mighty ones referred to later on in the narrative...

The Talmud, Niddah 61a, explains that Og (who was a giant, and one of their descendants) survived the great flood by holding onto Noah’s ark and staying close to it.​
 
Last edited:

Back
Top Bottom