What swear words would Jesus use?

Okay, so if UL is only around because of government, how about CE (almost as prevalent), EMC, CUL, and the many, many, many others operating in this same arena? What about all the certification bodies that cover everything from building supplies to car parts?

What about the fact that OUR OWN GOVERNMENT says that many such inspections "serve no useful purpose" because of UL and many other organizations?
 
Me, I have to get a unit plan together, because guess what book I was just asked to teach next semester? Mmm-hmm.

By the way, what would you tell your students if they ask why no one actually tested meat from the Chicago packers that made it to market to confirm these allegations?

What would you tell them if they ask why Sinclair never tried to find any corroborating witnesses, like the widows who must exist if the allegations are true?

What would you tell them if they ask why no prosecutors were interested in these cases of murder and cover-up? Why was no one ever prosecuted and convicted of these crimes?

What would you tell them if they ask why this happened despite the existance of hundreds of government inspectors already inspecting the meat plants, inspectors who claimed to find none of the problems alleged by Sinclair?

What would you tell them if they ask why it was only the Chicago meat packers who had these alleged problems?

What would you tell them if they ask why it took a second-rate author trying to start a Socialist revolution to expose a conspiracy that no one else could?

If I'm a student in your class, and I ask you these questions, what would your response be?
 
Yes, that's me, always demanding evidence of claims. How radical!

Shanek the book was published at the turn of the XX century! The things it mentions are now old (well established and documented) history, and they led to the implementation of the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906. They are common knowledge!

You're not asking for "evidence", you're asking people to palliate your own ignorance.
 
Shanek the book was published at the turn of the XX century! The things it mentions are now old (well established and documented) history, and they led to the implementation of the Pure Food and Drug Act of 1906. They are common knowledge!

Because of what Sinclair wrote!!! I'm asking for evidence that Sinclair was correct. The fact that it led to the does not do that! The fact that it's "common knowledge" does not do that!!!
 
What shanek doesn't realize is that the legislation is there because it turned out that people did not do what shanek imagines they would do.

That's what shanek simply can't get through his thick skull: People don't behave in the best possible way at all times. Somebody screws up, somebody simply can't stop cheating other people. Instead of having a string of lawsuits, we have legislation. To protect us from the bad guys.

Shanek can't understand that it is quite possible for people to continue doing business, selling bad food at restaurants. In (what shanek ignorantly calls "socialist") Denmark, we have a lot of regulation. A lot. Once in a while, the health authorities check in on restaurants and eateries. Guess what? Each time they go out, they find lots of gross examples of health risks: Bad food, bad hygiene, the works. It's disgusting to read the reports. The restaurant owners simply don't behave. They don't serve healthy food on their own free will, so something has to be done. Somebody has to do it.

Is there anyone else checking the health status in restaurants? Nope. It isn't because they aren't allowed to, they simply can't do it better. It takes a lot of resources to do the same work - who would pay such a company? How does one pay for such a service? Get the restaurants to voluntarily sign up, and pay for it? What if they refuse? Make their own? We would get many different companies, each with their own standard. Nobody would know what restaurants lived up to what standards.

And likewise with every other aspect of our lives. We would have to be experts on everything. Want to go out to eat? You must be an expert on food care, an expert on hygiene in restaurant kitchens, an expert on what temperatures meat can be cooked safely, and so on.

It would be chaos. Insane chaos.

The question is: Does shanek check the kitchens of each restaurant he eats in? Does he do a full checkup?

If not, he doesn't practice what he preaches.
 
Because of what Sinclair wrote!!! I'm asking for evidence that Sinclair was correct. The fact that it led to the does not do that! The fact that it's "common knowledge" does not do that!!!

Denmark also has the equivalent. Surely, you don't suggest that the Danish authorities bought Sinclair's claims and did no investigation of their own?

"Denmark totally copied Sinclair"?
 
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=7229

Almost one hundred years ago, muckraking novelist Upton Sinclair wrote a book titled "The Jungle" that wove a tale of greed and abuse that reverberates to this day as a powerful case against laissez faire. Sinclair's focus of scorn was the meat packing industry. The objective of his effort was government regulation. The culmination of his work was the passage in 1906 of the famed Meat Inspection Act, enshrined in most history books as a sacred cow (excuse the pun) of the interventionist state.

Were Sinclair's allegations of a corrupt industry foisting unhealthy products on an unsuspecting public really true? And if so, should the free market stand forever indicted and convicted as a result? A response from advocates of freedom is long overdue. Here's a healthy start.
Though his novelized and sensational accusations prompted later congressional investigations of the industry, the investigators themselves expressed skepticism of Sinclair's integrity and credibility as a source of information. President Theodore Roosevelt wrote of Sinclair in a letter to William Allen White in July 1906, "I have an utter contempt for him. He is hysterical, unbalanced, and untruthful. Three-fourths of the things he said were absolute falsehoods. For some of the remainder there was only a basis of truth."2
"The Jungle"'s fictitious characters tell of men falling into tanks in meat packing plants and being ground up with animal parts, then made into "Durham's Pure Leaf Lard." Historian Stewart H. Holbrook writes, "The grunts, the groans, the agonized squeals of animals being butchered, the rivers of blood, the steaming masses of intestines, the various stenches . . . were displayed along with the corruption of government inspectors"4 and, of course, the callous greed of the ruthless packers.

Most Americans would be surprised to know that government meat inspection did not begin in 1906. The inspectors Holbrook refers to as being mentioned in Sinclair's book were among hundreds employed by federal, state, and local governments for more than a decade. Indeed, Congressman E. D. Crumpacker of Indiana noted in testimony before the House Agriculture Committee in June 1906 that not even one of those officials "ever registered any complaint or (gave) any public information with respect to the manner of the slaughtering or preparation of meat or food products."5

To Crumpacker and other contemporary skeptics, "Either the Government officials in Chicago (were) woefully derelict in their duty, or the situation over there (had been) outrageously overstated to the country."6 If the packing plants were as bad as alleged in "The Jungle," surely the government inspectors who never said so must be judged as guilty of neglect as the packers were of abuse.

Some two million visitors came to tour the stockyards and packinghouses of Chicago every year. Thousands of people worked in both. Why is it that it took a novel written by an anti-capitalist ideologue who spent but a few weeks there to unveil the real conditions to the American public?

All of the big Chicago packers combined accounted for less than 50 percent of the meat products produced in the United States; few if any charges were ever made against the sanitary conditions of the packinghouses of other cities. If the Chicago packers were guilty of anything like the terribly unsanitary conditions suggested by Sinclair, wouldn't they be foolishly exposing themselves to devastating losses of market share?

Historians with an ideological axe to grind against the market usually ignore an authoritative 1906 report of the Department of Agriculture's Bureau of Animal Husbandry. Its investigators provided a point-by-point refutation of the worst of Sinclair's allegations, some of which they labeled as "willful and deliberate misrepresentations of fact," "atrocious exaggeration," and "not at all characteristic."7

Instead, some of these same historians dwell on the Neill-Reynolds Report of the same year because it at least tentatively supported Sinclair. It turns out that neither Neill nor Reynolds had any experience in the meat packing business and spent a grand total of two and one-half weeks in the spring of 1906 investigating and preparing what turned out to be a carelessly written report with preconceived conclusions. Gabriel Kolko, a socialist but nonetheless an historian with a respect for facts, dismisses Sinclair as a propagandist and assails Neill and Reynolds as "two inexperienced Washington bureaucrats who freely admitted they knew nothing"8 of the meat packing process. Their own subsequent testimony revealed that they had gone to Chicago with the intention of finding fault with industry practices so as to get a new inspection law passed.9
When the sensational accusations of "The Jungle" became worldwide news, foreign purchases of American meat were cut in half and the meatpackers looked for new regulations to give their markets a calming sense of security. The only congressional hearings on what ultimately became the Meat Inspection Act of 1906 were held by Congressman James Wadsworth's Agriculture Committee between June 6 and 11. A careful reading of the deliberations of the Wadsworth committee and the subsequent floor debate leads inexorably to one conclusion: Knowing that a new law would allay public fears fanned by "The Jungle," bring smaller competitors under regulation, and put a newly laundered government stamp of approval on their products, the major meat packers strongly endorsed the proposed act and only quibbled over who should pay for it.

In the end, Americans got a new federal meat inspection law. The big packers got the taxpayers to pick up the entire $3 million price tag for its implementation as well as new regulations on their smaller competitors, and another myth entered the annals of anti-market dogma.

To his credit, Upton Sinclair actually opposed the law because he saw it for what it really was — a boon for the big meat packers.10 Far from a crusading and objective truth-seeker, Sinclair was a fool and a sucker who ended up being used by the very industry he hated.

Myths die hard. What you've just read is not at all "politically correct." But defending the market from historical attack begins with explaining what really happened. Those who persist in the shallow claim that "The Jungle" stands as a compelling indictment of the market should clean up their act because upon inspection, there seems to be an unpleasant odor hovering over it.
 
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UL has nothing to do with building codes. They made that plain after some 9/11 conspiracy crackpot said that the WTC towers were UL approved.

The codes require UL listing for various electrical components. The UL is nothing more than a state sponsered monopoly. Don't use UL approved stuff, don't build.
 
Is there anyone else checking the health status in restaurants? Nope. It isn't because they aren't allowed to, they simply can't do it better.

They cannot DEMAND to investigate a kitchen. That takes government muscle.
 
Denmark also has the equivalent. Surely, you don't suggest that the Danish authorities bought Sinclair's claims and did no investigation of their own?

"Denmark totally copied Sinclair"?

Every single developed country, and most developing nations, have rules equivalent to the Pure Food and Drug Act... But still, we have to prove to Shanek that such things are needed, and find evidence on the World Wide Waste of time proving the bleeding obvious... :rolleyes:

As I said before: that's our Shanek!
 
If I'm a student in your class, and I ask you these questions, what would your response be?

Write me a 5-page research paper in which you answer these questions for yourself, using MLA style. I have 29 other students to teach, and our goal here is an examination of Realism in American literature at the turn of the century.

"The Jungle" isn't about food sanitation, and that small aspect of the novel is not why we teach it in high school.

Here's the deal, Shanek. I'm satisfied that Sinclair largely told the truth of what he saw in his 7 weeks among the poor of Chicago. But as a teacher, I do not consider my students empty vessels into which I pour my vast and superior knowledge. My job is not to think for my students, but to teach my students to think for themselves.

So if a student has any sort of problem with what I'm teaching, it's his or her job to explore it for themselves and report what they've found. And yes, if a student managed to find proof that Sinclair invented the whole affair, or even most of it, I'd listen. But since you've been unable to do so, I have my doubts a student could.

Shanek, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. As a good skeptic, you should know that elementary dictum for yourself.
 
As a good skeptic, you should know that elementary dictum for yourself.

Shanek is not a "good" skeptic. In fact, he is not a skeptic at all. He is a political fanatic who abuses skepticism for his own political goals.
 
Every single developed country, and most developing nations, have rules equivalent to the Pure Food and Drug Act... But still, we have to prove to Shanek that such things are needed, and find evidence on the World Wide Waste of time proving the bleeding obvious... :rolleyes:

As I said before: that's our Shanek!

200 years ago, would you have made a similar statement supporting slavery? It's okay because most if not all of the governments of the world support it?
 
200 years ago, would you have made a similar statement supporting slavery? It's okay because most if not all of the governments of the world support it?

Mmm, quality of food and drug regulations vs. slavery... I dunno know about you, but it seems to me that they're not at all the same thing, 'cause you know, slavery is clearly unethical, while food and drug regulations, well, are not unethical.

But hey, that's our Shanek!
 
Write me a 5-page research paper in which you answer these questions for yourself, using MLA style.

Nuh-uh--stop weaseling. I'm a student in your class, I've raised my hand and asked you these questions. What's your answer?

"The Jungle" isn't about food sanitation, and that small aspect of the novel is not why we teach it in high school.

But that's the part that's had the biggest effect on us. That's the part that led directly to the FDA.

I'm satisfied that Sinclair largely told the truth of what he saw in his 7 weeks among the poor of Chicago.

After reading his book, you don't think his bias is obvious? You don't think he went in with the conclusion foregone, and looked for anything at all to support it? You have NOTHING to say about his TOTAL LACK OF DIRECT EVIDENCE for it?

Shanek, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The age-old cry of the woo-woo...That is NOT a skeptic dictum. That is a FALLACY, called "argument from ignorance." Sagan even mentioned it as such in his Baloney Detection Kit. If you make a claim, you MUST provide the evidence. You DON'T get to say, "There's no evidence, therefore I win."
 
Yeah, I know. I was trying for sarcasm. ;)
Funny; Claus's own website also recognizes it as a fallacy:

http://www.skepticreport.com/print/baloney-p.htm

Appeal to ignorance.
The claim that whatever has not been proved false must be true, and vice versa. E.g., There is no compelling evidence that UFOs are not visiting the Earth; therefore UFOs exist - and there is intelligent life elsewhere in the Universe. Or: There may be seventy kazillion other worlds, but not one is known to have the moral advancement of the Earth, so we're still central to the Universe.
This impatience with ambiguity can be critized in the phrase: absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Of course, he's quoting Sagan, but Claus KNOWS it's a fallacy and nonetheless supports it anyway when it suits him to do so.

And you people have the audacity to question MY status as a skeptic?
 

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