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Hawking says there are no gods

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For those, who understand science, please explain the text...

Let's start with broad strokes. You have a celebrity former physicist writing in a popular magazine for a non-technical audience, offering no references to the literature. What can you tell me about how representative this article is of the general understanding in cosmology?

Including that there is limit to knowledge.

Which specific passage are you referring to?
 
Nor do you. We don't become like you, just because you want it, even if you think it would be better for us. You overlook the individuality and project your subjective version of better on everybody else. That is your magic. My magic is that I don't care for your "we", because I can do it differently despite "being out of my mind" according to you. I am just as real as you.

What a despicable, self-serving argument in favor of everyone respecting your self-appointed, self-administered intellectual standards.
 
DavidMo is the more accurate/correct in this topic - Hawking is expressiing his opinions on the existence of God based on the current body of scientific knowledge. Hawking is an expert in this domain - so his opinions are to be reckoned with . . . but they are his opinions.
If you read the Hawking quotes in the article, and note his heavy use of conditional language, it appears that Hawking also agrees with DavidMo. He is clearly expressing opinion and not scientific fact.
For the record, that is standard scientific language, it doesn't mean the doubt you think it means. It's why I use the language I use: overwhelming evidence supports.

You need to read up a bit more on the issue of "scientific fact". It's sometimes used for certain purposes, but never means absolute fact.

This reminds me of the climate change testimony in Congress years back that I have oft quoted about misunderstanding the 'doubt' language of science. Gonna have to hunt for it.
 
The first paragraph is nice but empty. "All science" is nothing without its parts. How does "all" science "demonstrate"? Either you are more precise or we stay the same as we were.
I gave you more precision: The sun is not pulled across the sky by Apollo, etc. Literally everything science learns refutes some superstition or god-idea. Kant’s ideas about morality and God? Amply refuted by psychology, sociology, biology, etc. All that you have left is some abstract, unfalsifiable notion of god, something that cannot be proven right wrong by any new scientific insight -mostly because such ideas are indistinguishable from invisible garage dragons.

The second paragraph is completely misguided. Kant's moral argument has nothing to do with any ontological idea. Make sure you know what you're talking about. I already proposed a text by Russell (philosopher) that explained this.
This shows a clear and fundamental lack of understanding Kant’s argument. As any philosopher, his arguments have premises and his ideas about ontology are a fundamental premise of his moral conclusions.

Before any scientist went to the North Pole all children knew that Santa Claus is a legend. As soon as they reached the age of reason. By common sense. It is not the same with the idea of God. It cannot be disarmed with only common sense.
Ridiculous. God can be dismissed with the same exact “common sense” thought process as Santa Claus.
Given that science doesn't deals with this, what is the method to criticising the belief in God? Search in a library. On philosophy shelves, of course, In those of science you will not find any book on the subject.
Science also does not address Santa Claus. Santa is just a more recent invention so it’s more easily dismissed with “common sense.” The god argument carries a lot of cultural and emotional baggage.

I hate the phrase, “common sense,” by the way. People tend to use it to mean “the thinking ability that an average person possesses,” as if you only have to think about it for awhile to see how wrong it is. But it’s really just shorthand for “the sum of knowledge accumulated in a lifetime by learning and experience.”

By the way everybody knows that Santa Claus doesn’t exist. They are the Three King Magi.
And there’s no evidence they existed either! But yes, we know the legendary Santa doesn’t exist because our accumulated knowledge by the time we are 6 or so is enough to figure out that one old man in a sleigh driven by reindeer (which can’t fly) can’t deliver toys to every kid in the world. Similar reasoning is applicable to god ideas. And, in my view, this is exactly what Hawking did -he applied all his knowledge of science and the evidence it has accumulated to come up with his own god (or anti-god) idea.


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https://www.forbes.com/sites/starts...ere-was-no-big-bang-singularity/#33d413c07d81

For those, who understand science, please explain the text in the link and the science behind it.
Including that there is limit to knowledge.
Ooou I love 'Starts with a Bang' and all those other SB blogs.

I think you are over-extrapolating. This is a good example why science 'facts' like the Big Bang are subject to change as more evidence is collected. I don't know which of the two theories will end up being the accepted one. I'm happy to have more than one theory. When the static universe theory was discarded, the evidence was overwhelming. Here it isn't so clear and I don't know about 40 years out of date, but unless you are an astrophysicist, you should be content waiting for them to sort it out.

As for explaining why there is a limit to knowledge, that's not what the article is talking about. They are saying we cannot see what happened before space-time started, the same way we can't see outside the Universe. Essentially what is being said is there is no way to observe those things.

You might want to note that you substituted "knowledge" when only specific knowledge was actually said. It's an example of misreading or misstating what was said.
 
He's trying to claim we haven't remained consistent with our own standards because we can't directly observe the Big Bang. He wants to claim anything that can't be directly observed empirically is not science, therefore the Big Bang (and all it implies) is not science. This is his private definition of science, and he is unwilling to consider the possibility that he's wrong about it. I'll leave it to the readers to speculate why he is so unwilling.
What about predictions made by the big bang model. It's not all deduction.
 
Science is rational, scientists less so. Scientists are as capable of irrational beliefs as anyone else. There are no versions of god compatible with science since gods are invariably magical beings with precisely the same validity as Santa Claus. Science gives as much attention to disproving the existence of god as it does disproving Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy for the same reason, none of them are things with any objective reality. Philosophers doubtless spend endless time discussing god, it beats getting a real job I suppose.

Science says what it says and talks about what it talks about. You cannot attribute to it intentions that science does not have because it is not a person. If science does not speak of something, it does not speak. All we can do is to use other kinds of knowledge to explain why some belief seems to be irrational. No rational person can believe that an individual with immaculate red clothes pass a night entering in millions of homes by the chimney. However, it seems that many rational people think that there is some thing that interacts with them which other people cannot see. Science doesn't says anything about this. How can rational people enfront this? This is the challenge for atheists. To resort to a science that says nothing on this is not the solution.
 
Actually there is a vast amount of science that is done under classification. The rules for review, publication, and dissemination vary. How do I know this? Because I've done that science, chiefly for the Dept. of Energy. There is an equally vast amount of science done for private companies in order to attain a competitive advantage. As such, it is not publicly reviewed or published. How do I know this? Because I've done that science. In both these cases of "hidden" science, it is nevertheless carried out according to proper methodology. But you cannot find it. Quite a significant amount of the science that's actually done seems not to fit your definition.

Hidden science. Sounds like the worst kind of occultism. If that science makes sense it will be published somewhere. If we cannot know it, it is not of much interest to our debate. Once again, where are those scientific articles that talk about the existence of gods? In what energy department of what institution? For God's sake, this looks like the search for the philosophal stone.

No. You are not quoted a single scientific article speakinf of the existence of god. Don't lie that it is an ugly thing.
 
I gave you more precision: The sun is not pulled across the sky by Apollo, etc. Literally everything science learns refutes some superstition or god-idea. Kant’s ideas about morality and God? Amply refuted by psychology, sociology, biology, etc. All that you have left is some abstract, unfalsifiable notion of god, something that cannot be proven right wrong by any new scientific insight -mostly because such ideas are indistinguishable from invisible garage dragons.

This shows a clear and fundamental lack of understanding Kant’s argument. As any philosopher, his arguments have premises and his ideas about ontology are a fundamental premise of his moral conclusions.

Ridiculous. God can be dismissed with the same exact “common sense” thought process as Santa Claus.Science also does not address Santa Claus. Santa is just a more recent invention so it’s more easily dismissed with “common sense.” The god argument carries a lot of cultural and emotional baggage.

I hate the phrase, “common sense,” by the way. People tend to use it to mean “the thinking ability that an average person possesses,” as if you only have to think about it for awhile to see how wrong it is. But it’s really just shorthand for “the sum of knowledge accumulated in a lifetime by learning and experience.”

And there’s no evidence they existed either! But yes, we know the legendary Santa doesn’t exist because our accumulated knowledge by the time we are 6 or so is enough to figure out that one old man in a sleigh driven by reindeer (which can’t fly) can’t deliver toys to every kid in the world. Similar reasoning is applicable to god ideas. And, in my view, this is exactly what Hawking did -he applied all his knowledge of science and the evidence it has accumulated to come up with his own god (or anti-god) idea.


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You're circling around not to get into Kant's moral argument. You clearly don't know what you're talking about.
I'm glad you recognize that the existence of gods is denied with common sense, not with science. Whatever you want to call it, common sense is shorter. We have already reached a consensus on at least one point.

But I don't think there is empirical evidence to refute the existence of gods, as in the case of Santa Claus. Just as the cultured Greeks did not believe that the sun was a chariot guided by the god Apollo, today's cultured believers do not literally believe the biblical myths. So it is no use you showing them that Joshua did not stop the sun.
We need search in other places.
 
Ooou I love 'Starts with a Bang' and all those other SB blogs.

I think you are over-extrapolating. This is a good example why science 'facts' like the Big Bang are subject to change as more evidence is collected. I don't know which of the two theories will end up being the accepted one. I'm happy to have more than one theory. When the static universe theory was discarded, the evidence was overwhelming. Here it isn't so clear and I don't know about 40 years out of date, but unless you are an astrophysicist, you should be content waiting for them to sort it out.

As for explaining why there is a limit to knowledge, that's not what the article is talking about. They are saying we cannot see what happened before space-time started, the same way we can't see outside the Universe. Essentially what is being said is there is no way to observe those things. You might want to note that you substituted "knowledge" when only specific knowledge was actually said. It's an example of misreading or misstating what was said.

Yes, what is "beyond" time and space is unknown. Either for "nothing" or a "multiverse" or any other version, yet it is science in exactly the same sense as all other science.
The joke is that is not science as say the observation of cheating among group-living birds.

And the problem of all those claims "beyond" time and space, is that only one is non-false as the rest are false as contradictions, yet there are no way of knowing, which is true, because they are all based reason and logic. All the claims are reasonable, so that is not enough.

It ends with Kant and "das Ding an sich".
Or if you like:
... In everyday life, practically everyone is skeptical about some knowledge claims; but philosophical skeptics have doubted the possibility of any knowledge beyond that of the contents of directly felt experience. ...
https://www.britannica.com/topic/skepticism#ref560239

I doubt any claim, which has no direct experience.
All these theories only have reasonable inferences about "beyond" time and space and have no observable effect "beyond" time and space.
All claims of metaphysics are not based on observation, but reason and logic. Kant was a lot of things, but he was also a skeptic of sorts when it came to metaphysics.
All these theories are a form of metaphysics, because they go beyond the observable(physics) and use reason and logic.
There is a reason for the fact, that we have phenomenology. In practice all claims of metaphysics are first person of accounts of how to make sense of the universe and can have an effect on how other humans are treated.
You can observe that not just in this forum.

A link:
https://www.physicsoftheuniverse.com/topics_bigbang_inflation.html
End of article:
Linde's work, and that of fellow Russian Alex Vilenkin, has also given rise to the idea of "eternal inflation", where the inflation as a whole actually never stops, but small localized energy discharges within the overall energy field - almost like sparks of static electricity, but on on a cosmic scale - create small points of matter in the form of tiny particles. Such a process may represent the birth of a new universe, such as our own. Beginning in this way with what we have called a Big Bang, this new universe then itself proceeds to expand, although at a much slower rate than the continuing inflation outside of it. The rest of space outside of that universe is still full of undischarged energy, still expanding at enormous speed, and new universes, new Big Bangs, are occurring all the time.

The theory of cosmic inflation, then, supports the scenario in which our universe is just one among many parallel universes in a multiverse. As we will see in later sections, some corroborating evidence for such a scenario also arises from work on dark energy, on superstring theory and on quantum theory. However, the idea of a hypothetical multiverse, which we can never see or prove, is anathema to many physicists, and many critics still remain.

In practice all claims of metaphysics work in the first person sense, but none are based on observation. They are all cases of first person cognition.

Now for me methodological naturalism makes sense, but I can also observe that other humans do it differently.
In practice there are 4 kinds of knowledge:
No knowledge - metaphysics, always reason and logic about that which is independent of reason and logic.
Physical knowledge - observation, objective as independent of the observer.
Rational knowledge - reason and logic, objective as abstract cognition.
Ethical and practical knowledge - how someone evaluates worth and so on, subjective as dependent on feelings and emotions.
There are some combinations possible, but no system is based on reason, logic and evidence alone.

For you:
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Is–ought_problem
In every system of morality, which I have hitherto met with, I have always remark'd, that the author proceeds for some time in the ordinary ways of reasoning, and establishes the being of a God, or makes observations concerning human affairs; when all of a sudden I am surpriz'd to find, that instead of the usual copulations of propositions, is, and is not, I meet with no proposition that is not connected with an ought, or an ought not. This change is imperceptible; but is however, of the last consequence. For as this ought, or ought not, expresses some new relation or affirmation, 'tis necessary that it shou'd be observ'd and explain'd; and at the same time that a reason should be given; for what seems altogether inconceivable, how this new relation can be a deduction from others, which are entirely different from it.[

There is a variation in human behavior(fact), therefore we ought to use statical analysis. You simply think, it is better.
That is the core of your claim, but you have given no observations to make up your conclusion.
I.e. you have hit the is-ought problem. The solution is to state your beliefs about morality and leave evidence out of it, because it is a fact that there is a variation in human behavior.

Yeah, it is old. So are the 3 classical laws of logic. But they still apply.
 
You've been deliberately immune to learning so far. What makes you think that someone's going to go through all that trouble to teach you something you'll ignore?

Forget you and I. Go general, someone and someone else.
Now look at that in general, someone and someone else share the similarities of the natural world, but even that has a limit. E.g. if the one dies, the other doesn't simply die, because one does, but all die at some time.
It is general in one sense and a variation in another sense.
Now comes an example from cognitive science. Brain-scan humans, who are presented with a moral dilemma. Some use the emotional part of the brain, other use a combination of the emotional part and the rational part.
So how can that be wrong?
Take dyslexia and brain-scan. The brain changes depending on understanding. So are the one wrong and the other right?

All humans, who function in everyday use their brain in similar or different senses. So how can the different sense be wrong? How do you observe wrong in a brain as per external observation?
You and I are different in some sense. You claim that means that one of us is wrong and the other right. I accept that you do that.
I just don't do that. I agree or disagree based on my experience, cognition and values; i.e. that we disagree don't make of us wrong and the other right. It means that we do it differently.
To you it is fact that someone can be wrong, that works for you. I accept that it works for you.
And I accept that my way doesn't work for you to the point that from your POV it also doesn't work for me. But I am in effect still different than you and I can say so.
In practice the evidence that we are different, is that we in effect disagree. I.e we are different.

You don't want to become me and I don't want to become you. And we are still here. :) It works both ways. :)
And that is relevant back to the OP.
"I think the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing, according to the laws of science," Hawking, who died in March, wrote. "If you accept, as I do, that the laws of nature are fixed, then it doesn't take long to ask: What role is there for God?"

Down to the individual level I think differently and accept differently than some other humans and to some other humans, it means I don't think at all and can't accept differently. I get that and we are all still here. :)
 
Denied.
Until you show a genuine desire to learn and humility to match your ignorance on these matters, don't expect anyone to spend too much energy to educate you.

Accepted.
Now I notice that some of you want to learn me something and other resent that I want to teach them something. So it seems it goes both ways both for willingness to learn oneself and willingness to educate others. :D
 
Accepted.
Now I notice that some of you want to learn me something and other resent that I want to teach them something. So it seems it goes both ways both for willingness to learn oneself and willingness to educate others. :D

Wow you swung back to "I'm better than all of you and you need to learn from my brilliance" from "I'm just a poor little broken picked on outcast" without even a pause, impressive.

Again you, David, and the rest of the philosophizers would be a lot more believable if you wouldn't stop preaching about how rude the rest of us are being for not just accepting how transcendentally brilliant you are about everything.
 
Hidden science. Sounds like the worst kind of occultism

Who cares what you think of it? It exists in large amounts, despite your insistence that such things are "rare."

...it is not of much interest to our debate.

Straw man. But if that's your best response, then Its existence is of interest to our debate because it challenges your knowledge of what science consists of and how it's done. And that erodes the credibility of your attempts to preclusively define it. Your ad hoc dismissal of science that contradicts your belief is based on others accepting your authority to proclaim what is and isn't science. You seem to lack the knowledge that would supply such authority, so others have properly rejected it as a basis of argumentation.
 
Wow you swung back to "I'm better than all of you and you need to learn from my brilliance" from "I'm just a poor little broken picked on outcast" without even a pause, impressive.

Again you, David, and the rest of the philosophizers would be a lot more believable if you wouldn't stop preaching about how rude the rest of us are being for not just accepting how transcendentally brilliant you are about everything.

I could never be better than you, because you are better than me living your life. And so in reverse.
But of course there are difference as to how we understand that in general when it comes to other humans.
But that is morality in the general sense and again there we are different. :)
 
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Now I notice that some of you want to learn me something...

Nobody is interested in teaching you, as you are patently ineducable. You are being presented with facts in hopes that they will persuade you to rethink your propositions made in this debate, not because we have any lingering interest in your edification.

...and other resent that I want to teach them something.

Others are annoyed by your pontification in circumstances where you should be accepting correction. It's rude and arrogant.

So it seems it goes both ways both for willingness to learn oneself and willingness to educate others. :D

No, it doesn't. You approach this debate as if it were an ego-reinforcement exercise. You're projecting onto others the role you want them to play in it. We are neither your students nor your teachers. We are your critics and opponents in debate.
 
So now David is stuck firmly in the "Calling science a religion is the bestest most cleverest insult ever!" cycle of the anti-intellectual character arc.
 
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