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Hawking says there are no gods

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A) In what way?
B) What does that have to do with the thread?
C) If it's actually relevant, would you consider that this has perhaps something to do with your less-than-realistic ramblings?

Try living outside "normal" society, because to some humans, I am responsible for something I am not responsible for. They judge me, just like some atheists and theists judge people for being "wrong".
I am "wrong" all the time to some people simply by virtue of being different.

Now that is my world and I use that against those, who should know better. You are one of them, because you claim knowledge; i.e. science.

What is it, you think you do, when you claim I can't even think like a 4-year old. I can, then I point of the fallacy of reification.
Try reading op on physicalism in its different versions.
Start there:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/#RedNonRedPhy

The general:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/
Physicalism is the thesis that everything is physical, or as contemporary philosophers sometimes put it, that everything supervenes on the physical. The thesis is usually intended as a metaphysical thesis, parallel to the thesis attributed to the ancient Greek philosopher Thales, that everything is water, or the idealism of the 18th Century philosopher Berkeley, that everything is mental. The general idea is that the nature of the actual world (i.e. the universe and everything in it) conforms to a certain condition, the condition of being physical. Of course, physicalists don't deny that the world might contain many items that at first glance don't seem physical — items of a biological, or psychological, or moral, or social nature. But they insist nevertheless that at the end of the day such items are either physical or supervene on the physical.

The mental supervenes on the physical, i.e. is caused by the physical, but can't be reduced down to only brute facts.
It is not a physical fact, that a human is wrong. That is a social fact.
When you claim "wrong" is a physical fact, you have no observational data to back it up. It is a result of how you think.
 
Try living outside "normal" society, because to some humans, I am responsible for something I am not responsible for. They judge me, just like some atheists and theists judge people for being "wrong".
I am "wrong" all the time to some people simply by virtue of being different.

Oh my God after all this you put the "Poor picked on outcast" card down?

What is? Are you some transcendent God-King put on Earth to show enlightenment to the mere mortals with your ageless wisdom or some sad little creature just trying to make it in a world that won't accept him for being different?

BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BE BOTH!

PERSONAS ARE NOT ARGUMENTS!
 
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Try living outside "normal" society, because to some humans, I am responsible for something I am not responsible for. They judge me, just like some atheists and theists judge people for being "wrong".
I am "wrong" all the time to some people simply by virtue of being different.

Now that is my world and I use that against those, who should know better. You are one of them, because you claim knowledge; i.e. science.

What in the blue **** are you on about? That's not special needs. It's just you being wrong. It has nothing to do with you being different. Your claims simply don't match up to reality.

Yes I claim 'knowledge' because we can all know things with some degree of certainty.

What is it, you think you do, when you claim I can't even think like a 4-year old.

Calling you ignorant. That can't possibly really confuse you. Stop playing victim. You're just wrong. Man up and admit it.

The mental supervenes on the physical, i.e. is caused by the physical, but can't be reduced down to only brute facts.

That's nonsense. If it's caused entirely by the physical, then it can damn well be reduced to brute facts. You just don't like where that thought leads.
 
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I am "wrong" all the time to some people simply by virtue of being different.

But that is not reason you are being given here for why you are wrong.

Now that is my world and I use that against those, who should know better. You are one of them, because you claim knowledge; i.e. science.

No. Do not try to equate people who treat you differently for personal reasons with those here who have merit-based objections to your claims regarding science.
 
Indeed, we have reached a new low.

You know what I am and I don't know what you are.

It never happens that some atheists using science says something about other humans. Not in this thread or in any others. All atheists only state that they only have a lack of beliefs in gods. Never anything else including the worth of other humans. Never, no atheist judges another human.

That is how special we are. The difference is that I generally only engage other atheists, because they have knowledge and know for a fact, that other humans can be wrong including sometimes morality and the worth of a life.
Metaphysics is a social fact, no science. There are no privileged positions in metaphysics, only apathy or those, who care.
 
You know what I am and I don't know what you are.

It never happens that some atheists using science says something about other humans. Not in this thread or in any others. All atheists only state that they only have a lack of beliefs in gods. Never anything else including the worth of other humans. Never, no atheist judges another human.

That is how special we are. The difference is that I generally only engage other atheists, because they have knowledge and know for a fact, that other humans can be wrong including sometimes morality and the worth of a life.
Metaphysics is a social fact, no science. There are no privileged positions in metaphysics, only apathy or those, who care.

Irrelevant gibberish.
 
That is not what is meant by deduction in science. Stop trying to play teacher; you are not qualified. You're just latching onto words in people's posts and Google-pontificating blindly.

Tommy has provided the correct definition of deductive argument.

A deductive argument is an argument that is intended by the arguer to be deductively valid, that is, to provide a guarantee of the truth of the conclusion provided that the argument's premises are true. This point can be expressed also by saying that, in a deductive argument, the premises are intended to provide such strong support for the conclusion that, if the premises are true, then it would be impossible for the conclusion to be false. (Internet Encyclopedyia of Philosophy​

This is the definition of deductive logic that you will find everywhere. What is yours? What logic is the "scientific deductive logic" according you? I never heard of another deductive logic.

Indeed I can't possibly imagine how I've managed to be successful for decades in my career without your personal guidance. Your incomparable wisdom shines like a beacon across the murky waves of an otherwise rudderless and confused body of professional scientists who may not yet have sipped from your cup brimming with erudition.

That said, you changed "reasonable deduction" to "reasonable speculation." And you changed my argument, from the activities that constitute science, to what makes for a good research report in a journal (thus begging your premise). In my estimation, you've responded to somewhere between two-thirds and three-fourths of my posts by rewriting what I said or otherwise missing/dodging the point.

I noticed you also omitted to answer my question regarding how often calling everyone else ignorant works for you in a debate. That was not rhetorical. It was a serious question, In order to formulate my next response, I will need to know how much of your following arguments will be -- as this one is -- based on bluff and bluster.



The part I highlighted, where you suddenly narrowed the scope of what your critics had to supply in order to refute you. I should have guessed you wouldn't know what was meant after you omitted to address the charge of misrepresenting the sciences that study where beliefs in gods come from.

To be more accurate, you recently said this

I told you what you were wrong about -- your idea to limit what can be called science only to that which appears in a search report in a scientific journal. All you've done since then is continue to beg that premise of your argument. If you're going to ask only for scientific articles that refute the idea that science occurs also outside research reports, then you're so wound up a a ball of your own assumptions that I have to agree with my colleagues when they say you are ill-equipped to debate your own beliefs.
They're not my terms of a scientific publication. They are Oxford standard conditions. I suppose they have more authority than mine and yours. In any case, I am surprised that you consider them mine. In what kind of review have you published that you don't know this?

There is no "reasonable logical deduction" in scientific language. Scientific logic is inductive, deductive, mathematical, set logic... None of them is used by Hawking. What you mean is reasonable inference. In science there is a correct deduction or there is not. You exchange scientific concepts for a concept of common ("reasonable") language that is more or less speculative. That's why I'm not changing your concept for another (straw man), but correcting a mistake of yours.

I say ignorant as many times as necessary when something fundamental is ignored in a debate. To make a mistake is one thing. Not knowing what science is and pretending to give lessons on what science is is something else.

My criterion to know if a subject has been treated by science is to go to the places where science is published with guarantees. In the same way that if I want to know how to learn in schools I go to a school. If you have another criterion, say it clearly and we will discuss it. If you dispense with scientific publications, how do you know that science has dealt with a particular subject? This question is not rhetoric. I have been doing it from the beginning without anyone having answered it. I do not think you have an answer.

Science is what is done following the scientific method, usually called hypothetical deductive. Of course, it is possible that someone has done scientific research and has not published it in a journal or a science publisher. It's rare, but it can happen. If you have news of any of them on the subject, you can inform us. I am not dogmatic and I am open to that possibility, although I believe it to be remote. Until now what has been presented here did not meet the requirements. Anyway, if the existence of God is a scientific issue they would be more than a scientific enquiry. Where are they?
 
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Yet again formless nonsense tries to take the only process that's ever given us actual answers to things to task from not living up to impossible levels of standards it refuses to use at all.
 
Yet again formless nonsense tries to take the only process that's ever given us actual answers to things to task from not living up to impossible levels of standards it refuses to use at all.

doing science properly is difficult - but not impossible.
 
Oh my God after all this you put the "Poor picked on outcast" card down?

What is? Are you some transcendent God-King put on Earth to show enlightenment to the mere mortals with your ageless wisdom or some sad little creature just trying to make it in a world that won't accept him for being different?

BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BE BOTH!

PERSONAS ARE NOT ARGUMENTS!

I am unreflected(wrong), I share that with all humans, who make contradictions and we ought to stop that, because we are wrong(our arguments, which make us wrong) and it would be better(morality/psychology), if we stopped.
You judge me as being wrong, you care about that and want me to become like you, because that would be better to you. It doesn't follow that it would be better for me. You are God, you know what is better for all humans and you have the truly correct answers about that. That is the moral definition of God.
I want you to stop judging me and accept the difference. We can then start from there.
When it comes to your life, you are neither right nor wrong, because someone says so. That you base your morality on "we", is what you do. I based it on, what makes sense to me for the differences in individuality and try to find the common ground on what we have in common.
My wife is different than me in some sense as for your "wrong". But as long as she doesn't judge other humans based on that, I leave it be.
I am also different in some sense as for your "wrong" but what we, my wife and I, share is that all humans are worthy of respect and dignity.

Have you ever seen this:
Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities
https://www.un.org/development/desa...-the-rights-of-persons-with-disabilities.html

In Denmark there are 2 kinds of people, who gets treated badly on the systemic level - those of "wrong" color and those with disabilities; the latter either as mental problems/light physical handicap or as severe as it gets. I know, because I am one of them.
It gets better without religion, but it can get even better. So stop believing that you are the Standard for a good life.
 
The fact that it is for different reasons does not mean that the result is not the same: science does not deal with either of the two subjects. It is not true that all kind of God's ideas contradict the laws of nature. If it were so, there would be no believing scientists. And there are. There will be some idea of God compatible with the exercise of science, don't you think?
If you want to know something about this subject, go to a library and look in the philosophy section. I don't recommend the theology because it's sectarian. And in science you won't find anything.

Science is rational, scientists less so. Scientists are as capable of irrational beliefs as anyone else. There are no versions of god compatible with science since gods are invariably magical beings with precisely the same validity as Santa Claus. Science gives as much attention to disproving the existence of god as it does disproving Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy for the same reason, none of them are things with any objective reality. Philosophers doubtless spend endless time discussing god, it beats getting a real job I suppose.
 
Oh my God put the victim card away.

No, I am the victim of something for which I am not responsible. As for the parts, where we can change; politics, morality, some parts of psychology and so on, that requires work. You don't have to do that, because you are right and you don't have to check.

If we just all became like you. :) Well, that is not how reality works.

No human is wrong, just because another human says so. I am not wrong, just because you say so and neither in reverse. That is not how reality works.
When someone says to me I am wrong, I check my thinking and account for differences in thinking back to cognitive relativism.
We share the physical facts and are different as individuals.
Brute versus social/psychological/so on facts.
 
Science is rational, scientists less so. Scientists are as capable of irrational beliefs as anyone else. There are no versions of god compatible with science since gods are invariably magical beings with precisely the same validity as Santa Claus. Science gives as much attention to disproving the existence of god as it does disproving Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy for the same reason, none of them are things with any objective reality. Philosophers doubtless spend endless time discussing god, it beats getting a real job I suppose.

That's the weirdest part of this. The narrative from David (and Tommy when he's lucid enough to have a point) is some passion play about how since we can never be 100% rational we shouldn't bother at all

So it's demonizing a methodology for not being able to live up to its own standards 100% of the time all the time across the board forever and always and somehow coming to the conclusion that we should embrace a methodology that has no standards.

It's like some weird new version of the "Slavish purity to arbitrary ideological categorization" fetish that Bob assassinates threads with.
 
No, I am the victim of something for which I am not responsible.

That doesn't make you right or give you some special insight into the world we lack nor does it mean your nonsensical gibberish is anything but nonsensical gibberish.

You don't get to make reality not matter because the world hurt you.
 
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That doesn't make you right or give you some special insight into the world we lack nor does it mean your nonsensical gibberish is anything but nonsensical gibberish.

You don't get to make reality not matter because the world hurt you.

Nor do you. We don't become like you, just because you want it, even if you think it would be better for us. You overlook the individuality and project your subjective version of better on everybody else. That is your magic. My magic is that I don't care for your "we", because I can do it differently despite "being out of my mind" according to you. I am just as real as you.
 
Nor do you. We don't become like you, just because you want it, even if you think it would be better for us. You overlook the individuality and project your subjective version of better on everybody else. That is your magic. My magic is that I don't care for your "we", because I can do it differently despite "being out of my mind" according to you. I am just as real as you.

Gibberish.
 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/starts...ere-was-no-big-bang-singularity/#33d413c07d81

There Was No Big Bang Singularity
...
But this picture isn't just wrong, it's nearly 40 years out of date! We are absolutely certain there was no singularity associated with the hot Big Bang, and there may not have even been a birth to space and time at all. Here's what we know and how we know it. ...

For those, who understand science, please explain the text in the link and the science behind it.
Including that there is limit to knowledge.
 
Tommy has provided the correct definition of deductive argument.

And if I were talking about deductive argument then he would have had a point.

They're not my terms of a scientific publication.

And you're still begging the same question you were earlier. Most of what you write subsequently depends on that, so I'll just hit the points that don't suffer from circularity.

I say ignorant as many times as necessary...

The question was how often it has worked for you, not how often you do it.

My criterion to know if a subject has been treated by science is to go to the places where science is published with guarantees.

And you were directed to those places, but you rejected all of it and then moved the goalposts.

If you dispense with scientific publications...

I'm not advocating that we do.

Science is what is done following the scientific method, usually called hypothetical deductive.

It's "hypothetico-deductive." Maybe that's just a quibble. Perhaps you can tell us why we have to include "deductive" in there in order for it to reflect the science we actually do. And while you're at it, enlighten us on the precise relationship between deduction and inference.

Of course, it is possible that someone has done scientific research and has not published it in a journal or a science publisher. It's rare, but it can happen.

Actually there is a vast amount of science that is done under classification. The rules for review, publication, and dissemination vary. How do I know this? Because I've done that science, chiefly for the Dept. of Energy. There is an equally vast amount of science done for private companies in order to attain a competitive advantage. As such, it is not publicly reviewed or published. How do I know this? Because I've done that science. In both these cases of "hidden" science, it is nevertheless carried out according to proper methodology. But you cannot find it. Quite a significant amount of the science that's actually done seems not to fit your definition.

Until now what has been presented here did not meet the requirements.

Your requirements. The question is whether you have a good impression of how well your requirements accurately reflect what science is and does.

Anyway, if the existence of God is a scientific issue they would be more than a scientific enquiry. Where are they?

Another straw man.
 
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