Satanic Sculpture at Illinois Statehouse.

[Joe Random]

Same principle.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_45075c096d4de6ad3.jpg[/qimg]

Same principle.

I'd hit that.

 

[Thermal]

I'd hit that.

Never **** Satanic. Witches be crazy yo.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Not for the 'silent majority', I think. Most Christians are pretty indifferent to actual teachings, IME. I could count on one hand the number I see walking the walk. For many, including myself, a nativity an image of peace, love, and giving. Many progressives also don't condemn anyone to hell.

So, it's wrong for pretend Satanists to put up celebratory messages whose content they probably actually believe in (unless you're saying they think knowledge is a bad thing), but it's OK for pretend Christians to put up celebratory messages whose content they probably don't believe in?

Dave

 

[The Greater Fool]

More than nominally for me. My late grandfather was a protestant pastor. Never preached at anyone who didn't ask him to. Never told anyone they were going to hell. Spent his free time volunteering at the Atlantic City Rescue Mission for decades. I don't have these negative associations with Christians that so many here seem to have. They run from indifferent to kind, IME. Not many of the nasty ones that folks here seem to run across.

Sooooort of. I am acceptng of Nativities in the same way I am accepting of public Menorahs in a predominately Jewish town near me. I just kind of smile when I see them, and think 'they are celebrating a happy time'. The literal meaning is less consequential in my POV.

Mocking =/= positive for me. The Satanists don't need to stay silent, of course. Just maybe lighten up on the barbed jabs once or twice a year? Pick Dionysus for a sculpture, maybe. I'd drink to that.

I think we agree more than disagree, and think our individual life experiences lead us to our different responses to this. I don't think either of us would lecture the Satanists to their face any more that we would the Christians.

Seasons greetings and joy!

 

[dudalb]

Never **** Satanic. Witches be crazy yo.

Dark Willow in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" certainly was.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Dark Willow in "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" certainly was.

Willow, Dark Willow, Vamp Willow.

Shag, Marry, Avoid?

 

[dudalb]

Willow, Dark Willow, Vamp Willow.

Shag, Marry, Avoid?

BORED NOW!

 

[alfaniner]

So, (I know) you would allow the Christian based fun, but not the Satanic based fun?

"I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. The sinners are much more fun."
--Billy Joel

 

[Thermal]

So, it's wrong for pretend Satanists to put up celebratory messages whose content they probably actually believe in (unless you're saying they think knowledge is a bad thing), but it's OK for pretend Christians to put up celebratory messages whose content they probably don't believe in?

Dave

Not quite. The pretend Satanists (perhaps satirical Satanists is more accurate?) are free to share their ideas to their hearts' (or minds') content. But is it really necessary to do so in a time, place and manner of presentation designed to be offensive to other celebrants? Maybe these guys would like to stand up at weddings and opine that the union is statistically doomed to failure, while they're at it?

While a lot of professed Christians may not exactly live the life ordered by their deity, they do take this time of year to spread some happy. Their level of sincerity is not really my concern. I just discourage being a gratuitous buzzkill.

 

[Thermal]

I think we agree more than disagree, and think our individual life experiences lead us to our different responses to this. I don't think either of us would lecture the Satanists to their face any more that we would the Christians.

Seasons greetings and joy!

Back atcha, Brother, and a Happy New Year to you and Yours!

 

[xterra]

Agreed. Every sect can use public grounds to celebrate (plus or minus). I wouldn't be offended in the slightest to see Buddhist hootinannies or Hindu jazz out during their favorite times of celebration. Live it up. My objection is a pretend sect putting up sculpture to mock and insult others.

What makes this a pretend sect? Was the sect of your grandfather also a pretend sect?

How do you defend one without defending the other -- or denigrate one without denigrating the other? Of course, there's also the view that any religious sect is pretend, to the extent that the person viewing them doesn't believe in any gods.


With regard to putting up things to mock and insult others, what is a burning cross? Is it okay if it's done by a not-pretend sect (by whatever definition you use)?

 

[Dave Rogers]

Not quite. The pretend Satanists (perhaps satirical Satanists is more accurate?) are free to share their ideas to their hearts' (or minds') content. But is it really necessary to do so in a time, place and manner of presentation designed to be offensive to other celebrants?

It doesn't actually seem all that offensive to me. As other posters have said, nobody's being forced to look at it. It's much smaller and less gaudy than the Christmas decorations, the place chosen actually has no religious significance whatsoever, and the only reason to consider the time offensive is if you believe that Christianity has the sole right to any form of religious display through late November and December. In fact, what's seen as offensive about it is that it challenges the assumed prerogative of Christianity to broadcast its message; and it should be that prerogative, not the challenge, that's offensive.

Dave

 

[Thermal]

What makes this a pretend sect? Was the sect of your grandfather also a pretend sect?

How do you defend one without defending the other -- or denigrate one without denigrating the other? Of course, there's also the view that any religious sect is pretend, to the extent that the person viewing them doesn't believe in any gods.

Conceded. 'Pretend' is the wrong word. 'Satirical' is more apt for the Satanists. After all, they name their sect after a being they claim not to believe in, but use one that is the assumed adversary of their ideological opponents. While they have a sound philosophy, their persona is taking the proverbial piss.

Regarding my grandfather, no, nothing about his faith was pretend to him. He dedicated his life to the service of his god, and frequently putting that service above his own wants. I admire those who so willingly sacrifice for the benefit of those less fortunate. They are not taking the proverbial piss.

With regard to putting up things to mock and insult others, what is a burning cross? Is it okay if it's done by a not-pretend sect (by whatever definition you use)?

...burning cross?

...I think you have pastors confused with a very different group...

 

[xterra]

No insult toward your grandfather intended.

However, many non-religious people also put themselves second in service to some "greater" cause. (Quotation marks, because the definition of greater is dependent on the person.)

Isn't a cross a religious symbol? Burning or not?

What if instead of a cross, a star and crescent were burning? Wouldn't you call that a religious symbol?


Edit to ask, why call Satanism satirical? There are believers in that religion, even if it is possible that particular item is intended satirically.

 

[Thermal]

It doesn't actually seem all that offensive to me. As other posters have said, nobody's being forced to look at it. It's much smaller and less gaudy than the Christmas decorations, the place chosen actually has no religious significance whatsoever, and the only reason to consider the time offensive is if you believe that Christianity has the sole right to any form of religious display through late November and December. In fact, what's seen as offensive about it is that it challenges the assumed prerogative of Christianity to broadcast its message; and it should be that prerogative, not the challenge, that's offensive.

Dave

It's not that it is offensive, so much that it sure seems meant to be. Putting it next to a Christmas tree, as pictured in the OP, and right at eye level, is not something likely to be missed by those who are going to see the mild community spectacular that is the town's decorations. For a group who advocates knowledge and reason, would they know that such a display would reasonably be met with disdain? Picking a fight at an otherwise good-natured affair? i mean, black and crimson, with a snake wrapping around a female arm, a nice pentagram for good measure...this was meant to be a kick in the celebrants' teeth. Just like I have little sympathy for the Westboro Baptist Church's choice of venue for expressing their opinions, I think the Satanists could dial it down a little when both Christians and seculars are having some wholesome family time. there is a more considerate time and place to challenge religious thinking, if that is their intent.

 

[Thermal]

No insult toward your grandfather intended.

None taken, but thanks. I understand the context.

However, many non-religious people also put themselves second in service to some "greater" cause. (Quotation marks, because the definition of greater is dependent on the person.)

True, 'greater' is slippery, but I admire the secular who work for the equally slippery 'good' just as much. Faith has no monopoly on good works.

Isn't a cross a religious symbol? Burning or not?

What if instead of a cross, a star and crescent were burning? Wouldn't you call that a religious symbol?

A cross surely can be a religious symbol. Usually so, in fact. Set one ablaze and it is no longer so; now it's a hate symbol. Much like inverting a cross, which can reverently signify St Peter's upside-down crucifixion, or an Ozzy Osbourne album cover prop.

Edit to ask, why call Satanism satirical? There are believers in that religion, even if it is possible that particular item is intended satirically.

The whole shebang is anti-religion, and outspokenly so. The dressing-up play at B-movie devil worshiping is a clever device, but that seems to be as far as it goes. I can't see religious fervor in what condemns religious thought.

 

[fuelair]

Religious freedom is religious freedom. Allow religious sculpture in a state building where it doesn't belong, then allow religious sculpture in a state building where it doesn't belong.

Too true, make the xtians sweat or have hysterics!!!!!! Keep their tiny hearts pumping wildly!!!!

 

[Thermal]

Fuelair's back! Welcome home!

 

[fuelair]

Fuelair's back! Welcome home!

Thank you kindly!!