Satanic Sculpture at Illinois Statehouse.

[Senex]

The brilliance of this statue is it glorifies the pursuit of knowledge while making people think about the anti-science bias of Christianity. Taking a bite out of "The Tree of Knowledge" caused original sin. Now we need the local Christian magician to say the magic mumbo-jumbo words over us to save our souls from eternal damnation.

Screw that. The quest for knowledge is the spiritual ticket -- not the quest for the local magician to clean your stained soul for Eve's transgressions.

 

[Thermal]

Agree it may be a flip off. Agree it may be spite. Wouldn't that be their thing, though?

I don't know about you, but I've had Christians tell me I was going to Hell, and they think they are doing me a service. Turn about is fair play.

Yes, but time and place. Christians, and the larger secular celebrants, are not tossing condemnation around at Christmas. Let them live it up in peace, as long as the spirit is positive.

Face it, Satanism is a FU to Abrahamic religions, since they take the side of Biblical Satan. This is their fun, heck, their purpose.

We seem to be largely in agreement: The State needs to stay neutral.

Yup. Agreed.

Where we don't agree is, when the State doesn't stay neutral, you would just accept it, and I like the Satanist FU. If the State wants to play when it shouldn't, it must play fair.

I like the Satanist FU, and their philosophy is sound. Where I have a problem is spiting others for the hell of it when they are in observation of their...whatever.

If I see a Muslim bowing towards Mecca, I wouldn't interrupt his prayers bellowing 'I like big butts and I cannot lie'. and I'm not inclined to dress down a Sikh as terrorist for sporting a turban. Leave 'em alone if they are peaceful, and hold their feet to the fire if they want to get judgey. Xmas decorations fall into the former for me.

 

[Thermal]

maybe. Anger should be placed on officials that turn neutral ground into a forum for public debate by insisting on their religious shrines. They could easily restore a sense of dignity by removing all religious references, but they don't.

I find the Satanists to be a little less "FU" than the Festivus or FSM ilk. They seem to actually have a core philosophy and code of ethics. Much of it is a repudiation of Christianity, but there is an actual serious philosophical core. At least, more serious than most joke displays. I don't really consider snark to be a bad response here though.

The one from the OP is saying that knowledge is a gift, not a curse. It's a serious repudiation of the morals of Genesis and not solely snark. That's more seriousness than it really deserves, so kudos to the Satanists for going the extra mile.

Agreed, the Satanists have a sincere standpoint and should be taken as such. Hell, I agree with them. I just draw the line at using the Christian imagery to backhandedly mock, which is what they are doing. Shouldn't those who champion clear thinking and knowledge be compassionate, too? The sculpture is not reaching out for converts. Nor is FSM. Festivus kind of is. That's meant in fun, so I'd give it a pass.

 

[Thermal]

How is Satanism more insulting to Christianity than Christianity is insulting to Satanism?

Satanism was conceived as an insult to Christianity, using its imagery while refuting its validity. It's spitting in the face.

 

[Thermal]

The brilliance of this statue is it glorifies the pursuit of knowledge while making people think about the anti-science bias of Christianity. Taking a bite out of "The Tree of Knowledge" caused original sin. Now we need the local Christian magician to say the magic mumbo-jumbo words over us to save our souls from eternal damnation.

Screw that. The quest for knowledge is the spiritual ticket -- not the quest for the local magician to clean your stained soul for Eve's transgressions.

Agreed. Now could they push that agenda without spite? That's the high road of superior thinking, yes?

 

[Senex]

Agreed. Now could they push that agenda without spite? That's the high road of superior thinking, yes?

What spite? The statue sends a positive message concerning the human spirit. It also represents the wonder of democracy where non-believers in the pseudo-state religion can express themselves (albeit they had to jump through many unfortunate legal hurdles that were cleared) in public.

It's also very festive looking! Hail knowledge! Happy Holidays!

 

[Joe Random]

What seems to be getting missed a bit is that the displays in question (Christian/Satanist/etc.) are in the state capitol rotunda. So this isn't a case of people setting up an FU statue in a public park or outside a church. In addition to any other message it intends to send it also makes it clear that if the government wants to allow religious displays on government property it must allow equal access with no show of favoritism.

 

[Senex]

What seems to be getting missed a bit is that the displays in question (Christian/Satanist/etc.) are in the state capitol rotunda. So this isn't a case of people setting up an FU statue in a public park or outside a church. In addition to any other message it intends to send it also makes it clear that if the government wants to allow religious displays on government property it must allow equal access with no show of favoritism.

Amen to that.

 

[Thermal]

What seems to be getting missed a bit is that the displays in question (Christian/Satanist/etc.) are in the state capitol rotunda. So this isn't a case of people setting up an FU statue in a public park or outside a church. In addition to any other message it intends to send it also makes it clear that if the government wants to allow religious displays on government property it must allow equal access with no show of favoritism.

Agreed. I would venture that The Church of Satan is a real religion as much as yours truly is a real priest and Doctorate holder. In an irreverent, irrelevant, and screwball way, I am, but of course not really.

 

[The Greater Fool]

Yes, but time and place. Christians, and the larger secular celebrants, are not tossing condemnation around at Christmas. Let them live it up in peace, as long as the spirit is positive.

Except that State sponsored Christmas celebrations, positive as they may seem, are for and by Christians who are actually using it to force their beliefs on everyone else, however timidly they seem to do it. And, yes, they still condemn non-believers to Hell, those are their beliefs.

I like the Satanist FU, and their philosophy is sound. Where I have a problem is spiting others for the hell of it when they are in observation of their...whatever.

As others have said, their FU was an affirmative message. They are not forcing anyone to pay attention nor spitting on anyone anymore or less than the Christian presentation.

If I see a Muslim bowing towards Mecca, I wouldn't interrupt his prayers bellowing 'I like big butts and I cannot lie'. and I'm not inclined to dress down a Sikh as terrorist for sporting a turban. Leave 'em alone if they are peaceful, and hold their feet to the fire if they want to get judgey. Xmas decorations fall into the former for me.

Wait. This sculpture does nothing to anyone. It's not stopping anyone from praying to mecca, not messing with anyone's turban, nor is it stopping anyone from celebrating Christs (not) birth, or Santa. No one is even forced to look at it, and definitely not look forced to look at it twice, or even consider it's message.

 

[Thermal]

Except that State sponsored Christmas celebrations, positive as they may seem, are for and by Christians who are actually using it to force their beliefs on everyone else, however timidly they seem to do it. And, yes, they still condemn non-believers to Hell, those are their beliefs.

Not for the 'silent majority', I think. Most Christians are pretty indifferent to actual teachings, IME. I could count on one hand the number I see walking the walk. For many, including myself, a nativity an image of peace, love, and giving. Many progressives also don't condemn anyone to hell. It's the painting-with-too-broad-a-brush thing.

As others have said, their FU was an affirmative message. They are not forcing anyone to pay attention nor spitting on anyone anymore or less than the Christian presentation.


Wait. This sculpture does nothing to anyone. It's not stopping anyone from praying to mecca, not messing with anyone's turban, nor is it stopping anyone from celebrating Christs (not) birth, or Santa. No one is even forced to look at it, and definitely not look forced to look at it twice, or even consider it's message.

True enough. But they are jutting out imagery intended to mock. Maybe it's puritanical, but I just want to tell them 'play nice, kids'.

And certainly to take the high road, if their point is to refute those being small-minded.

 

[JoeMorgue]

So Evangelicals get to just promote religion on government property because the masses just see the pretty colors and blinking lights?

 

[Thermal]

You have a Christmas tree, dog?

 

[JoeMorgue]

You have a Christmas tree, dog?

I'm not a government office.

And no dog, because we have cats, and a dog. Dog.

 

[Thermal]

I'm not a government office.

And no dog, because we have cats, and a dog. Dog.

My point is that people are knee-jerking about separation of church and state for something like this. I doubt that anyone puts nearly the religious overtones on a nativity that those on this board are. Like a Christmas tree at the White House, with whatever is on the top, the line gets a little blurry. Doesn't mean creeping Christianity coming to get you.

 

[The Greater Fool]

Not for the 'silent majority', I think. Most Christians are pretty indifferent to actual teachings, IME. I could count on one hand the number I see walking the walk. For many, including myself, a nativity an image of peace, love, and giving. Many progressives also don't condemn anyone to hell. It's the painting-with-too-broad-a-brush thing.

I suspect that like you, I have been raised in a nominally Christian culture.

If most aren't 'walking the walk', why allow them to pretend on State grounds. Your claim that most Christians don't walk the walk, which I do not dispute, weakens your stand. Why then must we allow their public display of hypocrisy? Are you accepting of it because of being a cultural Christian, like me?

True enough. But they are jutting out imagery intended to mock. Maybe it's puritanical, but I just want to tell them 'play nice, kids'.

And certainly to take the high road, if their point is to refute those being small-minded.

Allowing Satanists their display of a (perhaps) mocking yet positive message is 'playing nice'. Staying silent is not necessarily taking the high road.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The irony is the Satanist display is literally prove their own point.

*Sees a display from their own and/or a majority held belief*
"Oh just don't see what the big deal is. It's not hurting anybody. I mean where do we draw the line?"
*Somebody puts up a display for a different and/or minority held belief*
"I immediately have a problem with this and have no problem knowing where to draw the line."

 

[Thermal]

I suspect that like you, I have been raised in a nominally Christian culture.

More than nominally for me. My late grandfather was a protestant pastor. Never preached at anyone who didn't ask him to. Never told anyone they were going to hell. Spent his free time volunteering at the Atlantic City Rescue Mission for decades. I don't have these negative associations with Christians that so many here seem to have. They run from indifferent to kind, IME. Not many of the nasty ones that folks here seem to run across.

If most aren't 'walking the walk', why allow them to pretend on State grounds. Your claim that most Christians don't walk the walk, which I do not dispute, weakens your stand. Why then must we allow their public display of hypocrisy? Are you accepting of it because of being a cultural Christian, like me?

Sooooort of. I am acceptng of Nativities in the same way I am accepting of public Menorahs in a predominately Jewish town near me. I just kind of smile when I see them, and think 'they are celebrating a happy time'. The literal meaning is less consequential in my POV.

Allowing Satanists their display of a (perhaps) mocking yet positive message is 'playing nice'. Staying silent is not necessarily taking the high road.

Mocking =/= positive for me. The Satanists don't need to stay silent, of course. Just maybe lighten up on the barbed jabs once or twice a year? Pick Dionysus for a sculpture, maybe. I'd drink to that.

 

[Thermal]

The irony is the Satanist display is literally prove their own point.

*Sees a display from their own and/or a majority held belief*
"Oh just don't see what the big deal is. It's not hurting anybody. I mean where do we draw the line?"
*Somebody puts up a display for a different and/or minority held belief*
"I immediately have a problem with this and have no problem knowing where to draw the line."

Yeah, it's a real quandary to differentiate a celebration from a double-bird flip-off.

 

[Armitage72]

What seems to be getting missed a bit is that the displays in question (Christian/Satanist/etc.) are in the state capitol rotunda. So this isn't a case of people setting up an FU statue in a public park or outside a church. In addition to any other message it intends to send it also makes it clear that if the government wants to allow religious displays on government property it must allow equal access with no show of favoritism.

See also, for example, when the Louisiana state legislature passed a law in 2012 that allowed government-paid vouchers to be used to enroll in religious schools ... and were horrified to realize that Muslim schools were eligible when one applied for vouchers. Some of the lawmakers flat-out said that they didn't intend it to be used for any religion other than their own.
All or none.