Cont: Mueller Investigation pt3

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Belz... said:
I hate it when cynics are right.
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You see I hate, with a passion, traditional cynicism (I mean modern traditional cynicism, I'm not going back to ancient Greece here) where everything is just all this whiny "Everything sucks and nothing matters" nihilism trying be edgy. They kind of cynicism is always just a self fulfilling prophecy.

But I do fall into the slightly similar but different "I hate it when I'm right" version of cynicism.

It's the Cynicism version of "I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed."
 
phiwum said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there was no confidentiality agreement, then they are within their rights to share information and shouldn't be punished for doing so.
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You're not wrong, and the fact that such an arrangement was not part of Manafort's plea deal, when other less important figures got much more restrictive deals, seems highly revealing.
 
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phiwum said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if there was no confidentiality agreement, then they are within their rights to share information and shouldn't be punished for doing so.
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I'm basing this on Ken White's opinion on this, but it might not matter if there was such a clause. A joint defense agreement logically becomes void once one party becomes a cooperating witness. A joint defense requires for the parties to have aligned interests. A cooperator and an un-indicted co-conspirator cannot have such a shared interest.

If there wasn't such an agreement in writing, ethics and common sense would strongly imply one existed for any competent lawyer.

Any coordination between Manafort and Trump could be considered non-confidential given these facts, despite it involving their lawyers. It would be a hell of a legal fight, given the circumstances, but Mueller could conceivably subpoena everyone and compel testimony.
 
JoeMorgue said:
You see I hate, with a passion, traditional cynicism (I mean modern traditional cynicism, I'm not going back to ancient Greece here) where everything is just all this whiny "Everything sucks and nothing matters" nihilism trying be edgy. They kind of cynicism is always just a self fulfilling prophecy.

But I do fall into the slightly similar but different "I hate it when I'm right" version of cynicism.

It's the Cynicism version of "I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed."
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But...you aren't right. You've made a prediction about how something is going to happen, and it very much reads like "everything sucks, nothing (Mueller) does matters". Literally to a T it reads like that.

Offices are getting raided, deals are getting changed, people are getting charged, and yet here, not only, you are complaining that nothing will happen. It boggles me, but apparently you're saying "not enough" has happened, when the investigation isn't even done yet.
 
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plague311 said:
But...you aren't right. You've made a prediction about how something is going to happen, and it very much reads like "everything sucks, nothing (Mueller) does matters". Literally to a T it reads like that.

Offices are getting raided, deals are getting changed, people are getting charged, and yet here, not only, you are complaining that nothing will happen. It boggles me, but apparently you're saying "not enough" has happened, when the investigation isn't even done yet.
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If the evidence is overwhelming and the Senate does nothing - as would seem to be the case given past record - then what happens?
 
Ladewig said:
I couldn’t get to the article.
Are they seriously suggesting that Mueller trusted Manafort? And even if you trust someone, you still put a clause in the plea agreement to not discuss anything outside of consultations with your lawyer because some people you trust might inadvertently give away critical information.

Mueller wouldn’t have gotten this far making rookie mistakes.
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I'll quote him:

Some analysts speculate that Mr. Mueller intended this result — that he knew that Mr. Manafort would lie to him, knew that Mr. Manafort’s lawyers would brief Mr. Trump on those lies, and knew that Mr. Trump would foolishly repeat those lies in his written statement to Mr. Mueller, thus committing a new federal crime.

That’s a good plot for a legal thriller, but it’s not how real federal prosecutors work. Mr. Mueller is a by-the-book sort of prosecutor, not one to indulge in such ploys. To the extent he trusted Mr. Manafort and revealed details of his investigation, he made a mistake.

[...]

Mr. Mueller’s mistake is understandable. Mr. Manafort’s lawyers’ communications with Mr. Trump’s lawyers are shocking and unprecedented, a brazen violation of criminal defense norms notable even in an investigation full of them. They are consistent with only one conclusion: Mr. Manafort and his lawyers seek a presidential pardon, not a reduced sentence through sincere cooperation.
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Captain_Swoop said:
Trump Tweets

When will this illegal Joseph McCarthy style Witch Hunt, one that has shattered so many innocent lives, ever end-or will it just go on forever? After wasting more than $40,000,000 (is that possible?), it has proven only one thing-there was NO Collusion with Russia. So Ridiculous!

Wow, that's $10,000,000 overnight!
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He's tweeting about this a lot more frequently recently. It gives the appearance of panic setting in.
 
https://twitter.com/rgoodlaw/status/1068173252747542533

What Donald Trump Jr told Congress about Moscow Tower deal

Note Michael Cohen plea: "briefed family members...within the Company about the project"

Don Jr to Senate:

Sater worked on deal "in 2015"
"I wasn't involved"
Were you aware Cohen reached out to Kremlin? "No, I was not"
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Note: Mueller is prosecuting people for lying to Congress.
 
https://twitter.com/SethAbramson/status/1068167895115538433

I don't think people appreciate yet what's happening. If Trump was secretly working a 9-figure real estate deal with a Kremlin-connected Russian oligarch AFTER he received his August 17, 2016 classified briefing telling him Russia was attacking America—Houston, we have a problem.

2/ Keep in mind Trump KNEW his deal with Rozov involved Kremlin consent because COHEN TOLD HIM SO after speaking repeatedly with Sater. So Trump was *knowingly doing business with active enemies of the US* while promising them the most historically pro-Russia foreign policy ever.
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plague311 said:
But...you aren't right. You've made a prediction about how something is going to happen, and it very much reads like "everything sucks, nothing (Mueller) does matters". Literally to a T it reads like that.

Offices are getting raided, deals are getting changed, people are getting charged, and yet here, not only, you are complaining that nothing will happen. It boggles me, but apparently you're saying "not enough" has happened, when the investigation isn't even done yet.
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Not to speak for Joe, but I think the concern is that all that will come out of this will be that Michael J. Fox spends 13 years at Danbury Minimum Security prison, and that Trump will get off with nothing.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again so? The only people who can do anything are the Senate, who won't because of a Republican majority, the SCOTUS, who won't because of a Republican majority, and the American electorate who won't because the .0000000000008% who even bother to show up are so entrenched in their partisan tribalism that a standing President from their party could eat a live baby during the State of the Union speech and they'd still vote for him because sure he eats babies but whatabout when the other side did this...
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True... Trump is probably protected from impeachment by a republican senate. But that doesn't necessarily mean that at least some measure of justice won't be served.

Various associates of Trump (including members of his family) could get dragged into the investigation and ultimately end up charged and/or jailed. Which is good because 1) their crimes demand punishment for themselves, and 2) it will probably bother Trump when he sees close associates jailed. (Yes he's a narcissist, but it will still probably shake him to see Trump Jr. or Ivanka behind bars)

Plus, there is the chance that if a solid case is built by Mueller, then Trump may face prosecution when his term ends (assuming he doesn't die from a KFC-induced heart attack), either at the federal level, or at the state level (not necessarily from the Russian-associated crimes, but from other types of fraud that might have been revealed during the investigation.) Yeah, it would be better to have him charged sooner than later, but even delayed justice is better than nothing.
 
JoeMorgue said:
Again so? The only people who can do anything are the Senate, who won't because of a Republican majority, the SCOTUS, who won't because of a Republican majority, and the American electorate who won't because the .0000000000008% who even bother to show up are so entrenched in their partisan tribalism that a standing President from their party could eat a live baby during the State of the Union speech and they'd still vote for him because sure he eats babies but whatabout when the other side did this...

Right now every Trumper, if they are even deigning to care about this, is having the same thought. "Yeah I guess this is bad I suppose, but if it kept Hillary out of office it's acceptable."

Politics has become total war, where everything you do to beat "the other side" is justified.

Trumps already done stuff he could have gotten impeached for. How is this different?
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If you are right, then a second civil war is only a matter of time, regardless of what happens with Trump.
 
Popehat thread on the significance of the Cohen plea

Also this:

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/1068182691739246593

NEW: Trump attorney Rudy Giuliani: "Michael Cohen is a liar. It's no surprise that Cohen lied to Congress. He's a proven liar who is doing everything he can to get out of a long-term prison sentence." http://abcn.ws/2RhAqpE
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https://twitter.com/Popehat/status/1068204742998810624

My former attorney, on whom I relied for everything, who I placed in a prominent role in my campaign, who spoke on my behalf, and whose Congressional testimony I closely monitored, is a long-time big liar, man.

BEST. DEFENSE. EVER.
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dudalb said:
I disagree.
I think the political damage to Trump with a pardon for Manafort will be devastating, regarless of what happens in the court.
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What evidence do you think that this obstruction of justice would matter to his supporters when his other ones haven't? They can't write it off as a joke?
 
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