Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

[Cosmic Yak]

I was answering your question to The Big Dog: "However, your answer still does not explain why the Chinese government would approve of something that, according to you, they want to destroy."

Did I answer that question satisfactorily?

No, I don't think you did. Both Falun Gong and the separatist ambitions of the Uighurs are a threat to the totalitarian control of the Communist Party: it even says this (about Falun Gong) in your link. The reason they are being persecuted is not for reasons of religion.
Moreover, your answer, that the Chinese government has a goal of eradicating religions, and is exerting control as a first step in this process, is not supported either by your citations, nor by anything other than your say-so.

 

[Doubt]

Summary of what is known in this thread:

1.) The Chinese government is committing human rights abuses against members of the underground Catholic church and other groups. Nobody actually disputes this here.

2.) There is an official Catholic church in China that is currently not be subjected to human rights abuses. One person in this thread might not believe that but everybody else gets that.

3.) The Chinese government is run the by the Communist party. No one disputes this.

4.) The Chinese communist party is composed of Marxist Atheists. This is questionable.
A.) The current economic model followed in China is capitalistic one and is not compatible with Marxist ideology.
B.) The actual beliefs of the communist leadership are not something publicly stated. They may believe quite a few things. Until about ten years ago there were quite a few Falun Gong believers in the government there.

Given that the underground churches and the Falun Gong cult are being treated the same way but the sanctioned church is not, we can conclude that the issue is not one of belief but one of control. If the Government in China was actual interested in promoting atheism, they would also go after the official churches.

We can also conclude that since the Vatican has recognized the official church supported by government, the underground churches are not following the wishes of the Vatican and are actually heretics which are not following the instructions of the pope.

https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2018/09/26/180926b.html

3. As the Successor of Peter, I want to confirm you in this faith (cf. Lk 22:32) – in the faith of Abraham, in the faith of the Virgin Mary, in the faith you have received –and to ask you to place your trust ever more firmly in the Lord of history and in the Church’s discernment of his will. May all of us implore the gift of the Spirit to illumine our minds, warm our hearts and help us to understand where he would lead us, in order to overcome inevitable moments of bewilderment, and to find the strength to set out resolutely on the road ahead."

 

[The Big Dog]

Summary of what is known in this thread:

1.) The Chinese government is committing human rights abuses against members of the underground Catholic church and other groups. Nobody actually disputes this here.

2.) There is an official Catholic church in China that is currently not be subjected to human rights abuses. One person in this thread might not believe that but everybody else gets that.

Bizarre that you focus on the Catholics and not the Muslims (also member of an official Church) that is being subjected to human rights abuses and fail to mention:

1. that all Churches in China are subject to severe limitations as i have pointed out a half dozen times
2. I posted an article within the last couple of days about China destroying to catholic shrines. here is another one:

https://cruxnow.com/church-in-asia-...rian-shrines-despite-vatican-china-agreement/

Oh dear, all that typing and all for nothing.

Could have saved us all a ton of time by, ya know, reading the numerous articles and sources I link?

 

[The Big Dog]

China tightens online religious activity rules

I just realized that my posts in this thread would undoubtedly subject me to incarceration and forced acceptance of Firm Marxist Atheism in China.

"All of China’s officially recognized religions appear to have been affected by the crackdown. In the northwestern region of Xinjiang, an estimated 1 million Uighurs and other members of Muslim minority groups have been arbitrarily detained in indoctrination camps where they are forced to denounce Islam and profess loyalty to the party."

This is one of the articles i have cited repeatedly, but the Unyielding Marxist Atheist Apologists did not bother to read it.

Oh well.

 

[Shalamar]

Summary of what is known in this thread:

1.) The Chinese government is committing human rights abuses against members of the underground Catholic church and other groups. Nobody actually disputes this here.

2.) There is an official Catholic church in China that is currently not be subjected to human rights abuses. One person in this thread might not believe that but everybody else gets that.

3.) The Chinese government is run the by the Communist party. No one disputes this.

4.) The Chinese communist party is composed of Marxist Atheists. This is questionable.
A.) The current economic model followed in China is capitalistic one and is not compatible with Marxist ideology.
B.) The actual beliefs of the communist leadership are not something publicly stated. They may believe quite a few things. Until about ten years ago there were quite a few Falun Gong believers in the government there.

Given that the underground churches and the Falun Gong cult are being treated the same way but the sanctioned church is not, we can conclude that the issue is not one of belief but one of control. If the Government in China was actual interested in promoting atheism, they would also go after the official churches.

We can also conclude that since the Vatican has recognized the official church supported by government, the underground churches are not following the wishes of the Vatican and are actually heretics which are not following the instructions of the pope.

https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2018/09/26/180926b.html

What is unfortunate, is that there could be an actual interesting discussion about what is happening in China. However, when one poster keeping barking that is all the ATHEISTS fault, it seems that the well has been thoroughly poisoned.

 

[abaddon]

This is one of the articles i have cited repeatedly, but the Unyielding Marxist Atheist Apologists did not bother to read it.

Oh well.

We did. You apparently did not. You keep on citing articles that do not support your position.

The holey RCC has concluded an agreement with the PTB in China. Are you OK with that, or have you found Allah?

 

[wollery]

Bizarre that you focus on the Catholics and not the Muslims (also member of an official Church) that is being subjected to human rights . . .

Do you think that there's only one flavour of Islam?

There are huge numbers of muslims in Yunnan province. Is there any mention anywhere of them being persecuted?

What about other religious groups?

How about the Chinese Jews in Shanghai, Harbin and Hong Kong? You won't find anything about them being persecuted, and they don't even belong to an officially recognized church!

 

[The Big Dog]

Do you think that there's only one flavour of Islam?

There are huge numbers of muslims in Yunnan province. Is there any mention anywhere of them being persecuted?

What about other religious groups?

How about the Chinese Jews in Shanghai, Harbin and Hong Kong? You won't find anything about them being persecuted, and they don't even belong to an officially recognized church!

Oof, boy howdy did that first question miss the point.
yes
yes
yes, and I will also go on to note the fact it might not be mentioned don't mean it ain't happening .

By the way? All religious people are not being herded into camps might be the single worst defense of the Unyielding Marxist Atheist's human rights atrocities i have seen in an unbelievably long time.

Mystified that people would try to roll out that next level bull ****, wowsers.

 

[wollery]

Oof, boy howdy did that first question miss the point.
yes
yes
yes, and I will also go on to note the fact it might not be mentioned don't mean it ain't happening .

Cites for those would be good.

By the way? All religious people are not being herded into camps might be the single worst defense of the Unyielding Marxist Atheist's human rights atrocities i have seen in an unbelievably long time.

I never mentioned that as a defence. Largely because I'm not defending the horrific treatment of the Uighurs or christians who are being persecuted.

I'm simply questioning your narrative of the rationale behind the persecution.

Mainly because your rationale is bollocks.

Mystified that people would try to roll out that next level bull ****, wowsers.

Nothing to be mystified about because, as noted above, I didn't do it.

 

[Doubt]

Mainly because your rationale is bollocks.

But you see he is an expert. Unless those of us that have actually spent time on the ground in China. Or maybe some scientist type that lived there.......

 

[The Big Dog]

I never mentioned that as a defence. Largely because I'm not defending the horrific treatment of the Uighurs or christians who are being persecuted.

Well, I hope you were trying to make some kind of point other than simply diverting the discussion from what we on this here website call "JAQ'ing off" or that you may also know as gish gallop (which is a term I absolutely love to use in anti-religious apologist threads)

Just asking questions then? Super. That does not change the fact that Unyielding Marxist Atheists have put 2 million religious in camps.

Any... questions?

But you see he is an expert. Unless those of us that have actually spent time on the ground in China. Or maybe some scientist type that lived there.......

ZOMG! You lived in China. I can't wait to rush into the USA Politics forum and declare that I lived in the USA and therefore everyone should just shut up! Except for being one of the most fallacious arguments I have seen in a long while, I bow down to the double down with "Science."

Stand back, we are doing science!

Yet 2 million muslims are still in camps in China

 

[Doubt]

Well, I hope you were trying to make some kind of point other than simply diverting the discussion from what we on this here website call "JAQ'ing off" or that you may also know as gish gallop (which is a term I absolutely love to use in anti-religious apologist threads)

Just asking questions then? Super. That does not change the fact that Unyielding Marxist Atheists have put 2 million religious in camps.

Any... questions?



ZOMG! You lived in China. I can't wait to rush into the USA Politics forum and declare that I lived in the USA and therefore everyone should just shut up! Except for being one of the most fallacious arguments I have seen in a long while, I bow down to the double down with "Science."

Stand back, we are doing science!

Yet 2 million muslims are still in camps in China

Nope. Never lived there. Made quite a few trips in 2015 and 2016. But also spent time there in the mid 90's and one short trip in 2006. One other person here has quite a bit more experience in China than I do and I suspect a few others have been there as well. (Hint: I'm not a scientist. I am an engineer.)

Nobody told you to shut up. They told you to listen and you have not done that. Continuing to call them Marxist Atheists smacks of willful ignorance. The current government is to Marxism what North Korea is to Democracy. If Mao suddenly rose from the grave he would probably have the current government shot since nothing happening there meets with the ideas that communism was supposed to be about.

If you were actually interested in learning something you have a golden chance to start. Go back to how they have dealt with Falun Gong and look at why they went after them and then you might actually get what is driving the current abuse. But then we already told you what is driving it and you just don't seem to get it.

In fact, the JREF and Randi had a connection to what happened during the Falun Gong crack down.

 

[wollery]

Well, I hope you were trying to make some kind of point other than simply diverting the discussion from what we on this here website call "JAQ'ing off" or that you may also know as gish gallop (which is a term I absolutely love to use in anti-religious apologist threads)



Just asking questions then? Super. That does not change the fact that Unyielding Marxist Atheists have put 2 million religious in camps.



Any... questions?

Still waiting for those citations to demonstrate the persecution of muslims in Yunnan and the Jews in Shanghai.

You remember, you said there was mention of their persecution. I'm sure you have evidence of that, such as news reports.

Otherwise, it would seem that the persecution is limited to a few specific religious groups. I wonder why that might be, and what those groups might have in common.

 

[The Big Dog]

Nope. Never lived there. Made quite a few trips in 2015 and 2016. But also spent time there in the mid 90's and one short trip in 2006. One other person here has quite a bit more experience in China than I do and I suspect a few others have been there as well. (Hint: I'm not a scientist. I am an engineer.)

Nobody told you to shut up. They told you to listen and you have not done that. Continuing to call them Marxist Atheists smacks of willful ignorance. The current government is to Marxism what North Korea is to Democracy. If Mao suddenly rose from the grave he would probably have the current government shot since nothing happening there meets with the ideas that communism was supposed to be about.

If you were actually interested in learning something you have a golden chance to start. Go back to how they have dealt with Falun Gong and look at why they went after them and then you might actually get what is driving the current abuse. But then we already told you what is driving it and you just don't seem to get it.

In fact, the JREF and Randi had a connection to what happened during the Falun Gong crack down.

"Continuing to call them Marxist Atheists smacks of willful ignorance."

Y'all her that folks? Calling them "Marxist Atheists" smack of teh ignorance

Not because they are not atheist, but because they are not Marxist! Which??

HILARIOUS.

By the way, I know y'all have been there before which achieves: expert level!

But I actually got Firm Marxist Atheist or Unyielding Marxist Atheist from a fella called Xi Jinping, who also spent a fair bit of time in China.

Hmm, I actually repeatedly posted articles making that clear, but y'all been on several trips to China, so...

cool, cool...

 

[Doubt]

"Continuing to call them Marxist Atheists smacks of willful ignorance."

Y'all her that folks? Calling them "Marxist Atheists" smack of teh ignorance

Not because they are not atheist, but because they are not Marxist! Which??

HILARIOUS.

By the way, I know y'all have been there before which achieves: expert level!

But I actually got Firm Marxist Atheist or Unyielding Marxist Atheist from a fella called Xi Jinping, who also spent a fair bit of time in China.

Hmm, I actually repeatedly posted articles making that clear, but y'all been on several trips to China, so...

cool, cool...

Yes, they call themselves Marxists. But they have a capitalist economy and therefor are not actually Marxist. If you believe they are Marxist then you must also believe that North Korea is a democracy for the same reason you think China is Marxist.

 

[The Big Dog]

Still waiting for those citations to demonstrate the persecution of muslims in Yunnan and the Jews in Shanghai.

You remember, you said there was mention of their persecution. I'm sure you have evidence of that, such as news reports.

Otherwise, it would seem that the persecution is limited to a few specific religious groups. I wonder why that might be, and what those groups might have in common.

still asking questions! Love it!

Putting a few million human beings in camps is "limited." Seriously, words typed right here on a site for skeptics!

Say, I wonder whether in addition to characterizing putting a million or so human beings in concentration camps is LIMITED! (actually typed right here in this thread! That is why pogrom deniers are indistinuishable from holocaust deniers) y'all had the chance to read the thread?

"All of China’s officially recognized religions appear to have been affected by the crackdown. In the northwestern region of Xinjiang, an estimated 1 million Uighurs and other members of Muslim minority groups have been arbitrarily detained in indoctrination camps where they are forced to denounce Islam and profess loyalty to the party."

"All of China’s officially recognized religions appear to have been affected by the crackdown."

"All of China’s officially recognized religions appear to have been affected by the crackdown."

ALL

Any questions??

 

[wollery]

still asking questions! Love it!

Putting a few million human beings in camps is "limited." Seriously, words typed right here on a site for skeptics!

Say, I wonder whether in addition to characterizing putting a million or so human beings in concentration camps is LIMITED! (actually typed right here in this thread! That is why pogrom deniers are indistinuishable from holocaust deniers) y'all had the chance to read the thread?

"All of China’s officially recognized religions appear to have been affected by the crackdown. In the northwestern region of Xinjiang, an estimated 1 million Uighurs and other members of Muslim minority groups have been arbitrarily detained in indoctrination camps where they are forced to denounce Islam and profess loyalty to the party."

"All of China’s officially recognized religions appear to have been affected by the crackdown."

"All of China’s officially recognized religions appear to have been affected by the crackdown."

ALL

Any questions??

I see reading for comprehension isn't your strong suit. There's an important difference between "limited to specific groups" and "limited in numbers".

But then, that doesn't fit your chosen narrative, does it.

Still nothing in the way of citations (beyond vague allusions) for any of the religious groups I asked about. How many of Yunnan's Hui Muslims are there in these camps?
What form does the persecution of the Shanghai Jews take?



Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

 

[The Big Dog]

“Reading for comprehension”

Hmmm....

“All.”

I see that can be confusing to folks who think that 2 million victims of human rights abuses is “limited.”

So it goes, folks....

 

[wollery]

“Reading for comprehension”

Hmmm....

“All.”

I see that can be confusing to folks who think that 2 million victims of human rights abuses is “limited.”

So it goes, folks....

Ah...

So it's willful ignorance.

Got it.

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

 

[The Big Dog]

Ah...

So it's willful ignorance.

Got it.

Sent from my SM-J320FN using Tapatalk

“All” the way.

2 million human beings in re-education camps = limited

Learning!