Elizabeth Warren Ancestry Thread

[kellyb]

So, to sum up my thoughts after this very interesting and eye opening (seriously, I think it is) discussion:

It was kinda dumb for Elizabeth Warren to ever hold herself out to be a minority or claim connection to the Cherokee people. She only had her family lore to go on and we all know, based on our own experiences, how tenuous that lore can be. It is obvious that Warren herself never really made that big a deal of it -checking a box is pretty meaningless. There is no evidence that she ever gained anything from it other than, perhaps, a write up by Harvard touting their own diversity. Releasing this DNA test was a dumb move when she should have just left well enough alone and never spoken publicly about her ethnicity again. Rise above it, so to speak.

However, as dumb as it was, it cannot be argued -in my view- that Elizabeth Warren is a bad person; in fact, I'd say she's a pretty great person even if I disagree with some of her political positions. One good thing that has come of this is that I've had a chance to really look at Warren and her life and career. We should be proud to have her as a legislator because she, herself, has lived a distinguished life. Isn't she the kind of person we WANT in office? Someone who has served admirably and done some pretty great things, especially in her efforts towards consumer protection. That's what matters, her own experience and accomplishments, not the ethnicity of a distant ancestor -that is a total non-issue.

What I have learned is that we need to stop allowing ourselves, myself included, to become distracted by these kinds of irrelevant issues. Nothing will ever get better by continuing to engage this nonsense. I apologize for calling her a liar. I apologize for getting mixed up in this, ultimately, stupid and irrelevant debate over ethnicity.

Thank you!

 

[wareyin]

Per my claim? What claim?

I think you misunderstood my points there. What I said is that one can hold such an opinion, that her Cherokee claim has not be substantiated, without being on a specific "side" of the debate, in addition to holding other reasonable opinions that may come from any "side". A second point is that comparing her markers to Peruvian ones kind of makes it hard to determine if she has any Cherokee in her. I didn't say she was Peruvian.

Oh good grief. I forgot we are playing a calvinball style argummmmnt. You claimed that you could claim she was wrong about having a Cherokee ancestor. When I asked how she was wrong, you said Peruvian isn't Cherokee. Now I'm exp expected to believe that claiming she was wrong about a Cherokee ancestor because Peruvian isn't Cherokee was actually the hadn't substantiated her claim?

We all agree that she hasn't substantiated a claim of a Cherokee ancestor because of the inherent limits in DNA testing. That's not a side, that's the facts.

 

[Belz...]

Oh good grief. I forgot we are playing a calvinball style argummmmnt.

No, no, no. Don't blame me for adding content to my post that wasn't there just because your own interpretation convinced you but failed to meet reality.

You claimed that you could claim she was wrong about having a Cherokee ancestor.

No, I never said that. I said that it was possible to hold a number of opinions that are both reasonable and come from various "sides" of the discussion.

When I asked how she was wrong, you said Peruvian isn't Cherokee.

Gee, even after I explained exactly what that meant, you still don't get it? You can't prove that she's got Cherokee ancestry by comparing her markers with a different group's.

Now I'm exp expected to believe that claiming she was wrong about a Cherokee ancestor because Peruvian isn't Cherokee was actually the hadn't substantiated her claim?

Maybe if you didn't cling to your initial mistaken interpretation like your life depended on it you wouldn't ask such an inane question.

We all agree that she hasn't substantiated a claim of a Cherokee ancestor because of the inherent limits in DNA testing.

Right, so if we both agree on this, why the hell are you so intent on disagreeing with me?

 

[wareyin]

So, to sum up my thoughts after this very interesting and eye opening (seriously, I think it is) discussion:

It was kinda dumb for Elizabeth Warren to ever hold herself out to be a minority or claim connection to the Cherokee people. She only had her family lore to go on and we all know, based on our own experiences, how tenuous that lore can be. It is obvious that Warren herself never really made that big a deal of it -checking a box is pretty meaningless. There is no evidence that she ever gained anything from it other than, perhaps, a write up by Harvard touting their own diversity. Releasing this DNA test was a dumb move when she should have just left well enough alone and never spoken publicly about her ethnicity again. Rise above it, so to speak.

However, as dumb as it was, it cannot be argued -in my view- that Elizabeth Warren is a bad person; in fact, I'd say she's a pretty great person even if I disagree with some of her political positions. One good thing that has come of this is that I've had a chance to really look at Warren and her life and career. We should be proud to have her as a legislator because she, herself, has lived a distinguished life. Isn't she the kind of person we WANT in office? Someone who has served admirably and done some pretty great things, especially in her efforts towards consumer protection. That's what matters, her own experience and accomplishments, not the ethnicity of a distant ancestor -that is a total non-issue.

What I have learned is that we need to stop allowing ourselves, myself included, to become distracted by these kinds of irrelevant issues. Nothing will ever get better by continuing to engage this nonsense. I apologize for calling her a liar. I apologize for getting mixed up in this, ultimately, stupid and irrelevant debate over ethnicity.

Let me just pile on, here, and say well stated.

 

[The Big Dog]

What I have learned is that we need to stop allowing ourselves, myself included, to become distracted by these kinds of irrelevant issues. Nothing will ever get better by continuing to engage this nonsense. I apologize for calling her a liar. I apologize for getting mixed up in this, ultimately, stupid and irrelevant debate over ethnicity.

I agree with this as well, especially the highlighted. I don't ever do it on Facebook or in real life, but somehow I get sucked in here once in a while. I'm going to try to do this less.

Respect! A bloody outstanding post

No-one should ever be defined by a single, small, honest error of judgement they might have made once in their life.

Thank you!

Let me just pile on, here, and say well stated.

Warren pulls idiotic racist stunt
Leftists Celebrate!
Warren gets slammed by native Americans for her idiotic racist stunt.
Someone declares that it is a stupid and irrelevant debate
Leftists celebrate!

To reiterate:

A timely tweet from the same source:

"all my whitesplaining trolls the last 2 days are warren supporters. Indigenous people are not going to just sit down, shut up, and let all of you tell us what are the actual issues we should focus on in your nation built on the blood, bones, and stolen land of Indigenous people."

-Kim Tall Bear

 

[smartcooky]

My DNA test came back with specifically Scandinavian heritage. When researching the genealogical documents it was backed up when I discovered my gr grandmother's maiden name was "Jensen" which is Danish and my grandfather's surname, which is very unusual, overwhelmingly was found in Denmark and Schleswig-Holstein which was Danish before being ceded to Germany by war. So, yes, it did distinguish it correctly as being Scandinavian.

And despite TBDs insistence that ALL DNA testing with regards to ancestry is "junk science" my DNA tests also accords with known, documented facts. It shows a strong prevalence for origins in England, France, Switzerland and Germany.

FACT: My mother was Swiss, from the French speaking (western) part.

FACT: There are several of her distant ancestors; one pair of great grand parents (documented) and one pair of x2 great grandparents (also documented) who were from the eastern side of Germany

FACT: My father was English, from the South of England, East end of London

FACT: A couple of the Family names on my Father's side were French Hugenot names. It was always a part of family lore that we had ancestors who were French Huguenots who survived the butchering dished out to them by the Catholics in the St Bartholomew's Day massacre, and fled to England.

The only family lore story that has not been supported was the Scottish ancestry. No Scots DNA, and no Scots in our family going back seven generations to the 1841 England and Wales census.

 

[wareyin]

No, no, no. Don't blame me for adding content to my post that wasn't there just because your own interpretation convinced you but failed to meet reality.



No, I never said that. I said that it was possible to hold a number of opinions that are both reasonable and come from various "sides" of the discussion.

Never said one could claim she was wrong? Sure about that?

The point is that one can believe both that A) Warren made a claim that she has Cherokee ancestry B) Be wrong about that C) be right about having native american ancestry D) have used it for brownie points in the past E) it not being a big deal F) Trump is a big fat liar. All these things can be true at once but they are not espoused by the same "sides" of the discussion.

Gee, even after I explained exactly what that meant, you still don't get it? You can't prove that she's got Cherokee ancestry by comparing her markers with a different group's.

Oh I get it. Your claim is now unsubstantiated, which is in line with the facts. How dare I argue with your previous claim of a claim of "wrong"?

Maybe if you didn't cling to your initial mistaken interpretation like your life depended on it you wouldn't ask such an inane question.

Maybe if you weren't playing argument calvinball, the answer "Peruvian isn't Cherokee" to the question "How is she wrong to think she has a Cherokee ancestor" would clearly indicate she doesn't have a Cherokee ancestor because her ancestor is Peruvian. Otherwise it's a non-sequitur. People tend to get mistaken interpretations when a person intentionally speaks in riddles.

Right, so if we both agree on this, why the hell are you so intent on disagreeing with me?

I'm capable of agreeing with the factual content of your post while disagreeing with the incorrect content of your post. I don't think it's a remarkable trait.

 

[The Big Dog]

And despite TBDs insistence that ALL DNA testing with regards to ancestry is "junk science" my DNA tests also accords with known, documented facts.

Ain't nothing like a person proving SCIENCE with a personal anecdote, now is there?

 

[WilliamSeger]

Oh well, that again has nothing at all to do with what I posted or what the objections were in the various articles, but we all knew that there was zero chance of any Warren supporter actually doing that, right?

Oh well, my dog loves her chew toy, too, but establishing the scientific validity of DNA testing or the right of the Cherokee Nation to decide who is a member is not a valid argument that Warren lied or did anything unethical. I'm just laughing at you for completely ignoring the "despicable political stunt" and actual lies that Warren responded to.

But I will now stand back and watch you continue to chase your tail.

 

[smartcooky]

Warren pulls idiotic racist stunt does what she was challenged to do by Stupid Trump
Leftists Celebrate! understand
Warren gets slammed criticised by native Americans for her idiotic racist stunt. doing what she was challenged to do by Stupid Trump
Someone declares that it is a stupid and irrelevant debate
Leftists celebrate! agree

Corrected all that for you!

The lesson for Warren is don't let Stupid Trump drag her down to his level of Stupid.

Once Stupid Trump challenged her to release the DNA results, she was stuffed not matter what she did.

 

[Stacyhs]

After about a half century of self-government, a law enacted in 1906 directed that final rolls be made and that each enrollee be given an allotment of land or paid cash in lieu of an allotment. The Cherokees formally organized in 1975 with the adoption of a new Constitution that superseded the 1839 Cherokee Nation Constitution. This new Constitution establishes a Cherokee Register for the inclusion of any Cherokee for membership purposes in the Cherokee Nation. Members must be citizens as proven by reference to the Dawes Commission Rolls. Including in this are the Delaware Cherokees of Article II of the Delaware Agreement dated May 8, 1867, and the Shawnee Cherokees of Article III of the Shawnee Agreement dated June 9, 1869, and/or their descendants.

P.L. 100-472, authorizes through a planning and negotiation process Indian Tribes to administer and manage programs, activities, function, and services previously managed by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Pursuant to P.L. 100-472 the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma has entered into a Self-governance Compact and now provides those services previously provided by the BIA. Enrollment and allotment records are maintained by the Cherokee Nation. Any question with regard to the Cherokee Nation should be referred to:

Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma
P.O. Box 948
Tahlequah, OK 74465
(918) 456-0671
Fax (918) 456-6485.

My 4X great grandmother does not appear on the Dawes Rolls (which include the Creek) but the US censuses state her race as "Indian". Her death notice from typhoid in 1908 on the reservation in OK states her as being Creek and the daughter of a Creek chief named McQueen. Am I a member of the Creek tribe? No. But do I have Creek ancestry. Yes.

 

[smartcooky]

Ain't nothing like a person proving SCIENCE with a personal anecdote, now is there?

Did I say it proved anything? Nope, that's your bale of straw!

 

[The Big Dog]

Corrected all that for you!

The lesson for Warren is don't let Stupid Trump drag her down to his level of Stupid.

Trump made Elizabeth Warren do that idiotic racist stunt.

She is definitely Presidential material, folks! She got ******* played by Donald Trump.

 

[smartcooky]

Trump made Elizabeth Warren do that idiotic racist stunt.

She is definitely Presidential material, folks! She got ******* played by Donald Trump.

Yup, just like all you Trump Sycophants are being played by him every day of your lives.

 

[The Big Dog]

Yup, just like all you Trump Sycophants are being played by him every day of your lives.

Yummy, the warren whitesplainers are now rolling out the:

NO YOU!

That is absolutely ******* gorgeous.

 

[casebro]

Per 23&Me, My Mitochondrail Haplogroup had it's last mutation C5c1 to C5c1a in Poland. Pretty good reinforcement of the fact that all 4 grandparents were from Lithuania.

I expected her to have the 'C' 1-2-3-4 type. Most people think all C are First Immigrants. But they are originally East Asian, C5c means Mongol Horde. Much to know about genealogy. To no use far as I can tell.

 

[citizenzen]

Yummy, the warren whitesplainers are now rolling out the:

NO YOU!

That is absolutely ******* gorgeous.

It's not nearly as beautiful as you supporting a chronic, habitual liar, while falling on the fainting couch when Warren gets caught in one.

But it's not unexpected. The truth apparently only counts when a Dem tries to stretch it.

Then suddenly, Righties rediscover their morality.

 

[casebro]

I wonder if her white side goes back to the Mayflower? And what political ramifications that would have?

 

[kookbreaker]

I wonder if her white side goes back to the Mayflower? And what political ramifications that would have?

It might, be who knows and who cares. She seems to be pretty disdainful of her Father's side of the family who were the racists that caused her parents to elope.

 

[The Big Dog]

It's not nearly as beautiful as you supporting a chronic, habitual liar, while falling on the fainting couch when Warren gets caught in one.

But it's not unexpected. The truth apparently only counts when a Dem tries to stretch it.
Then suddenly, Righties rediscover their morality.

Hmmm, it seems I am the bad guy here for pointing out Warren's racist, stupid stunt and comprehensively quoting and citing sources demonstrating why Warren's stupid racist stunt was not "irrelevant."

But rather than address warren's stupid racist stunt, we get a full day's allowance of B-b-but-BUT TRUMP from her whitesplaining supporters.

Ya see folks, Warren was just trying to stretch it, ya see, no big deal.

whataboutism/tu quoque/appeal to hypocrisy are absolutely terrible arguments because it shows that in fact: The truth does not matter when a Dem tries to stretch it.