Cont: Brexit: Now What? Part 5

[JoeMorgue]

It was a non-binding referrendum. Yes, I know I keep going on about that, but I think it's really, really important and that fact seems to be being disregarded.

Then why did you even have the damn thing? Why is a "Non-binding resolution" even a thing that the government can do?

"Hey everybody take time out of your day to come to the polls and officially answer our question we are posing to you even though it will literally not matter."

At this point you essentially are arguing that you asked the people whether or not they wanted to leave the EU for the sole and only purpose of laughing at them when they got it wrong.

And I don't want another speech about how Brexit is bad or a list of all the reasons Brexit is bad. I know, I agree. I don't want to be reminded again that the vote was non-binding. Again I know, I agree. I called it a glorified opinion poll a hundred pages ago.

If Brexit was never going to happen, you shouldn't have asked people if they wanted it in an official manner.

No there was never a "If you Vote X then Y Will Happen" but its completely reasonable for a populace to expect a question posed to them by their government in an official manner like referendum to have at least some meaning or intent behind it, more than a "Yeah we were just asking we don't really care what you think."

 

[fagin]

Then why did you even have the damn thing? .....

'We' didn't. A ******* idiot politician was trying to garner votes, and didn't expect the outcome. Then ****** off into obscurity. Leaving the **** behind.

 

[GlennB]

Then why did you even have the damn thing? Why is a "Non-binding resolution" even a thing that the government can do?

"Hey everybody take time out of your day to come to the polls and officially answer our question we are posing to you even though it will literally not matter."

It did matter. The result cost the PM his job, and ignoring it would have cost his successor their job. It would also have pitched the Conservative party into open civil war rather than the cold war we've been witnessing.

 

[JoeMorgue]

So basically this whole thing was a grandiose version of a wife asking her husband if her new dress makes her butt look bit? Ask a question you know they are going to answer wrong so you can punish them?

Sod that noise.

 

[Hellbound]

Actually, sounds more like this exchange:

Wife: Honey, do you mind if I buy a new dress?
Husband: Sure honey, that's fine.
Wife: Great! This is the one I want, from Neiman Marcus, it's $13,000.
Husband: Wait a second! We didn't spend that much on the car! We need to talk about this!
Wife: But you already agreed, honey!

 

[jimbob]

Actually, sounds more like this exchange:

Wife: Honey, do you mind if I buy a new dress?
Husband: Sure honey, that's fine.
Wife: Great! This is the one I want, from Neiman Marcus, it's $13,000.
Husband: Wait a second! We didn't spend that much on the car! We need to talk about this!
Wife: But you already agreed, honey!

And it's a size 5 and you are a size 20 and allergic to the fabric.
I don't trust experts or tapemeasures

 

[Garrison]

Then why did you even have the damn thing?

That's easy, it was entirely to appease a bunch of Euroskeptic backbench Tory MPs, stop a loss of votes to UKIP and secure David Cameron's position as Prime Minister. The future of the UK in the EU was a long way down the list of priorities. It did sort of stop the loss of votes to UKIP, but only because UKIP ceased to be relevant after the majority voted leave.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

I'm so agonized over the UK. Corbyn is loony, the Tories are loony, BREXIT sucks. I've half a mind to march on Somerset and relaunch Alfred's great start to what was a great nation.

Screw empire, however.

 

[Belz...]

Come to Canada. We're a cool bunch.

 

[ceptimus]

No there was never a "If you Vote X then Y Will Happen

There was, actually. The government sent an official government advice leaflet to every household in the country. The leaflet stated, "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

 

[fagin]

Your second category commits the logical fallacy of 'begging the question' (in the original meaning of the phrase). You're asserting that anyone who thinks it's a good idea has been fooled. This is a fact not in evidence. It's quite conceivable (and, what's more, actually true) that many people who think it's a good idea haven't been 'fooled into thinking that' - but have arrived at their conclusion by rational intelligent thinking.

I don't assert that everyone who thinks Remain is a good idea has 'been fooled into it' because: a) it's untrue, b) it's insulting, c) it would make me look stupid if I made such a stupid assertion.

I don't fall into either of your categories by the way. So you are wrong about that too.

If you haven't been fooled into thinking it's a good idea, you must have a sensible reason.

Please share...

I have many times in these threads already done that. And it's always been met with sneering disbelief by the remainophiles that infest these threads.

Perhaps you can explain your positive sensible reasons for supporting Remain. And I mean positive - not the usual (negative) Project Fear, "things will be terrible when we leave (if we believe the forecasts)", but actual positive reasons for remaining.

Try

Free trade,
Open borders
Consistent laws
Representative democracy,
Economy of scale in administration
Easy air travel
Cheaper financial transaction fees
Free Calls from the EU on existing mobile plans
Easy to work abroad
Choice of passport colours
Visa free travel in the EU
No Irish border issues
Erasmus
Euratom
Ability to fly planes and land them in the EU
Galileo


Now your turn....

One sensible reason, please.

Still waiting.

 

[Tolls]

There was, actually. The government sent an official government advice leaflet to every household in the country. The leaflet stated, "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

And in attempting to implement that it has become clear it is going to be economically catastrophic in the short term at a minimum.

Something which, in a normal environment, would result in a government backing away after explaining this is a bloody silly idea.

Hence the need for a second referendum on the now fairly concrete form of Brexit, if only because the current government is simply not strong enough to say "sod this for a game of soldiers".

 

[Dave Rogers]

Then why did you even have the damn thing? Why is a "Non-binding resolution" even a thing that the government can do?

The founding principle of the British constitution is the supremacy of Parliament. There is, in fact, nothing that the government can do that is binding on Parliament; by implication, any referendum in the UK can only be non-binding.

Dave

 

[The Moog]

And in attempting to implement that it has become clear it is going to be economically catastrophic in the short term at a minimum.

Something which, in a normal environment, would result in a government backing away after explaining this is a bloody silly idea.

Hence the need for a second referendum on the now fairly concrete form of Brexit, if only because the current government is simply not strong enough to say "sod this for a game of soldiers".

The economic collapse is a feature not a bug, it allows for property and businesses to be picked up dirt cheap. This will be great for anyone with lots of cash in some currency other than £

 

[Lothian]

The benefits of Ceptimus's preferred hard brexit are piling up. We can get rid of foreign corporate immigrants like Nissan, BMW, Toyota and Honda. I look forward to the day when we Brits will all be driving around in Rolls Royces and Bentleys.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Then why did you even have the damn thing? Why is a "Non-binding resolution" even a thing that the government can do?

"Hey everybody take time out of your day to come to the polls and officially answer our question we are posing to you even though it will literally not matter."

At this point you essentially are arguing that you asked the people whether or not they wanted to leave the EU for the sole and only purpose of laughing at them when they got it wrong.

And I don't want another speech about how Brexit is bad or a list of all the reasons Brexit is bad. I know, I agree. I don't want to be reminded again that the vote was non-binding. Again I know, I agree. I called it a glorified opinion poll a hundred pages ago.

If Brexit was never going to happen, you shouldn't have asked people if they wanted it in an official manner.

No there was never a "If you Vote X then Y Will Happen" but its completely reasonable for a populace to expect a question posed to them by their government in an official manner like referendum to have at least some meaning or intent behind it, more than a "Yeah we were just asking we don't really care what you think."

You keep moving the goalposts though. First you talk about democracy then you talk about laws. These are two different things.

We had the vote so people could express their opinion on whether they wanted to leave the EU. The government said it would act on the outcome but was not legally bound to. I think it may well be impossible to be legally bound to do it since it would still require an Act of Parliament to be passed though I'm not certain on that.

However when people counter that democracy was perverted in a number of ways you then say that 'oh I didn't know you had a law that said that' but thats neither here nor there if the question is whether democracy is best served by ploughing ahead. If it's merely a legal question then there is no legal need to implement the decision.

Which one is it you want to argue?

 

[GnaGnaMan]

The benefits of Ceptimus's preferred hard brexit are piling up. We can get rid of foreign corporate immigrants like Nissan, BMW, Toyota and Honda. I look forward to the day when we Brits will all be driving around in Rolls Royces and Bentleys.

Those belong to BMW and VW, respectively. Patriotic Brits walk... but not wearing Reeboks. That belongs to Adidas.

 

[Tolls]

Those belong to BMW and VW, respectively. Patriotic Brits walk... but not wearing Reeboks. That belongs to Adidas.

Which leaves us with Morgans...and TVRs (?).
And a couple of other tiny ones whose names I can't remember?

And motorbikes. Possibly.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

There was, actually. The government sent an official government advice leaflet to every household in the country. The leaflet stated, "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide."

And then that government pissed off not implementing what was decided and a new one came along to implement it in the most suicidal way possible just for ***** and giggles.

Surely even you can see that even if we want to leave the EU and plan to do so in the future we are clearly not ready to do so in April since the Tories can't yet even agree amongst themselves what they want and nothing has been agreed with the EU yet?

Why was there such a rush to trigger Article 50?
Why such a rush to leave without putting proper preparations in place?
Why do we have to go straight to the hardest form of exit rather than have transitional arrangements which gradually extract us from the EU?

None of those would be counter to the referendum result, would surely have majority support in Parliament and with the people and would greatly diminish any justification for a second vote.

Is there any justification for THIS Brexit?

 

[Lothian]

Those belong to BMW and VW, respectively. Patriotic Brits walk... but not wearing Reeboks. That belongs to Adidas.

I wonder who the biggest British owned motor manufacturer is. Mclaren?

Of course the issue is not who owns them but where the parts come from and where the market is. Where the parts are all made in Britain and the market is Brits then there is no reason to suspect job losses. Where the manufacturers source parts from or sell to the EU (50% of Nissan's sales) then it makes sense to leave the UK in order to maximize profit/ minimize the vehicle sales price.

Still I am sure that many Brits have the skills to get jobs at the new automotive factories in the EU................