New SCOTUS Judge II: The Wrath of Kavanaugh

[Bob001]

I don't think I'm the one who's having trouble understanding what the issue is.
....

The issue is his behavior in high school and what he says about it now. Evidence of how he actually behaved in high school is directly relevant, especially when it contradicts his own claims, and especially when he is lying blatantly under oath. Kav himself brought in his high school calendars to prove what a choir boy he was, and some entries in them support Ford.

And you hate the Democrats for calling him out? Twisted priorities.

 

[pgwenthold]

I think there are a few forum members here who I would consider to be conservative who seem to have little to say on this matter. I would like to think that they know confirming Kavanaugh is beyond the pale. The only "conservatives" who seem to be supporting him would probably support him if he raped a donkey at his hearing and blamed it on Hillary Clinton.

Hyperbole aside, the stats I have seen is that slightly more than half of Republicans would support him even if the accusations were true. And nearly half of Evangelical Christians.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

I don't think I've seen some of the arguments you list. I'm not sure what you mean by the second argument, but the third is clear enough. I haven't seen it.

I don't read every post in this fast-moving thread, however.

The third is what all the statute of limitations talk is about.

 

[Steve]

Is Kavanaugh really the best candidate the republicans (Trump?) could come up with? Does this mean that anyone else considered for the post is even less suitable?

 

[JoeMorgue]

Is Kavanaugh really the best candidate the republicans (Trump?) could come up with? Does this mean that anyone else considered for the post is even less suitable?

No but since political battle lines have been drawn, they have to fight to the end because if they just give up in Kavanaugh and just nominate another conservative judge the Dems are awarded a "point" and that means when Political Judgement Day happens and God adds up all the points each side has they might lose

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Is Kavanaugh really the best candidate the republicans (Trump?) could come up with? Does this mean that anyone else considered for the post is even less suitable?

It was Kavanaugh's turn.

 

[Distracted1]

The issue is his behavior in high school and what he says about it now. Evidence of how he actually behaved in high school is directly relevant, especially when it contradicts his own claims, and especially when he is lying blatantly under oath. Kav himself brought in his high school calendars to prove what a choir boy he was, and some entries in them support Ford.

And you hate the Democrats for calling him out? Twisted priorities.

God, the eighties were fun for young men. We were channeling the idealization of the fifties and adding in cocaine and binge drinking.
Unlikely that any man who spent his formative years during that decade is suitable for high office if his behavior at that time were to be scrutinized.
Kavanaugh should have acknowledged that from the outset, IMO it would have made his denials more credible.

 

[Meadmaker]

The issue is ..

Whatever voters think the issue is.

 

[Meadmaker]

God, the eighties were fun for young men. We were channeling the idealization of the fifties and adding in cocaine and binge drinking.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

God, the eighties were fun for young men. We were channeling the idealization of the fifties and adding in cocaine and binge drinking.
Unlikely that any man who spent his formative years during that decade is suitable for high office if his behavior at that time were to be scrutinized.
Kavanaugh should have acknowledged that from the outset, IMO it would have made his denials more credible and come clean.

Seriously, we know that some men are pigs, especially many of the extremely ambitious ones.
The question is: can a candidate admit to past faults and credibly promise to do better henceforth? Or are they stuck in their teenage morality?

This is very basic stuff; when vetting for a security clearance, the issue is less past bad behavior and more bad secret behavior: are there skeletons in the closet that might open someone up to blackmail?

Kavanaugh should have done the standard Christian thing of Confessing to the Senate and asking for forgiveness.

 

[Bob001]

Whatever voters think the issue is.

Actually, that is precisely not the issue, since voters don't have anything to say about federal judicial appointments. We can only hope that the Senate will not allow a brutal ideologue to sit on the Supreme Court. And it looks like we will be wrong.

 

[angrysoba]

I don't think I've seen some of the arguments you list. I'm not sure what you mean by the second argument, but the third is clear enough. I haven't seen it.

I don't read every post in this fast-moving thread, however.

Of the three, yes, Meadmaker has just made the first, but I have seen Slings and Arrows and TBD pretty much make the same case.

Skeptic Tank has explicitly made the second one. It is not an insult to call him a racist who believes in eugenics and an extermination of black people. It is his own self-described opinion.

The third one has been pointed out by River and a few others who say that he can't be touched legally.

 

[Belz...]

Kavanaugh should have done the standard Christian thing of Confessing to the Senate and asking for forgiveness.

"Honorable members of the committee, my name if Brett Kavanaugh. In recent days there have been allegations against myself that I sexually assaulted a number of women during my student days. I deny these allegations. I will be the first to admit that, during those years, I did drink heavily, to the point of making myself sick. It was a juvenile and irresponsible behaviour that I've thankfully grown out of. It is possible that, at some point, I blacked out, and that I did or said things that I today do not remember. I have never, to my knowledge, sexually assaulted anyone, but it is possible, if perhaps unlikely, that I have said or done reprehensible things while under the influence, and which I do not recall. If that is the case, then I would be horrified at the revelation, and would offer my sincere apologies to anyone that I would have hurt. In any event, I hope that turning my life around since those days shows that I am sincere in my dedication to acting responsibly in a civil, adult world, and that I am still worthy of your consideration. I leave my fate in your hands."

I just wrote that off the top of my head. Saying that wouldn't have taken 45 minutes, and would sound a lot more responsible and respectable.

 

[The_Animus]

I think there are a few forum members here who I would consider to be conservative who seem to have little to say on this matter. I would like to think that they know confirming Kavanaugh is beyond the pale. The only "conservatives" who seem to be supporting him would probably support him if he raped a donkey at his hearing and blamed it on Hillary Clinton. Some of them have literally been making the arguments that:

the politics are too important to care about Kavanaugh's character
the White Power agenda makes everything else secondary
he can't be prosecuted for attempted rape so it is no big deal if he did it

...and then I also think that the IRL blustering responses by people such as Lindsey Graham are concealing an uneasy conscience. That's just a suspicion with people like that.

Yeah the reactions from the Trump Cult Conservatives has pretty much been "Wooo! Don't care if he lied, if he's partisan, if he committed sexual assault cuz screw the libtards. Wooo! Supreme court is ours Wooo!"

And from the more moderate conservatives... *Crickets*

 

[Dr. Keith]

"Honorable members of the committee, my name if Brett Kavanaugh. In recent days there have been allegations against myself that I sexually assaulted a number of women during my student days. I deny these allegations. I will be the first to admit that, during those years, I did drink heavily, to the point of making myself sick. It was a juvenile and irresponsible behaviour that I've thankfully grown out of. It is possible that, at some point, I blacked out, and that I did or said things that I today do not remember. I have never, to my knowledge, sexually assaulted anyone, but it is possible, if perhaps unlikely, that I have said or done reprehensible things while under the influence, and which I do not recall. If that is the case, then I would be horrified at the revelation, and would offer my sincere apologies to anyone that I would have hurt. In any event, I hope that turning my life around since those days shows that I am sincere in my dedication to acting responsibly in a civil, adult world, and that I am still worthy of your consideration. I leave my fate in your hands."

I just wrote that off the top of my head. Saying that wouldn't have taken 45 minutes, and would sound a lot more responsible and respectable.

Add in something about how horrible it is that we live in a society where most victims of sexual assault are not comfortable reporting their assault and some empathy for Dr. Ford having to live with these memories for over 35 years. It really isn't that hard to write something compelling and meaningful that does not admit guilt or denigrate Dr. Ford.

That he couldn't pull that off, and instead mentioned the Clintons, ugh, ******* amateur hour. If any of his clerks had written that crap they would have been fired.

Still, he has a chance to be a Justice on the Supreme Court. I just wonder how many votes this will cost the GOP in November. My very conservative M-i-L was not happy with this dog and pony show. She won't vote democratic, but she may just stay home.

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Is Kavanaugh really the best candidate the republicans (Trump?) could come up with? Does this mean that anyone else considered for the post is even less suitable?

I'm of the opinion (I forget where I first read it) that Kavanaugh was meant to be a stalking horse for Barret. He's a hideous, partisan troll with a dark, rapey past whose only redeeming quality is to make the next nominee look moderate in comparison. But the dems dropped the ball and the GOP kept doubling down and now here we are with a loaded pistol on the table screaming "let's do this!"

 

[Belz...]

Add in something about how horrible it is that we live in a society where most victims of sexual assault are not comfortable reporting their assault and some empathy for Dr. Ford having to live with these memories for over 35 years. It really isn't that hard to write something compelling and meaningful that does not admit guilt or denigrate Dr. Ford.

Yes you're right. I should've thought about that. It would've made him look good, rather than just reasonable.

That he couldn't pull that off, and instead mentioned the Clintons, ugh, ******* amateur hour. If any of his clerks had written that crap they would have been fired.

Amusingly, it's Kavanaugh's defense that convinced me he wasn't fit to be on the SCOTUS, not the accusations, or his legal opinions.

My very conservative M-i-L was not happy with this dog and pony show. She won't vote democratic, but she may just stay home.

She should vote D just to slap the **** out of the GOP. If enough people do that, the party will just have to give up its extreme-right platform.

 

[Belz...]

I'm of the opinion (I forget where I first read it) that Kavanaugh was meant to be a stalking horse for Barret. He's a hideous, partisan troll with a dark, rapey past whose only redeeming quality is to make the next nominee look moderate in comparison. But the dems dropped the ball and the GOP kept doubling down and now here we are with a loaded pistol on the table screaming "let's do this!"

Partisan politics are messed up. Up here in QC there's so much overlap between the parties that you actually have to read their platform in order to make up your mind about who to vote for. In the US there's virtually no overlap, so you end up always voting for the same people, and without a third option it's made the whole thing stale and pointless.

 

[River]

Yeah the reactions from the Trump Cult Conservatives has pretty much been "Wooo! Don't care if he lied, if he's partisan, if he committed sexual assault cuz screw the libtards. Wooo! Supreme court is ours Wooo!"

And from the more moderate conservatives... *Crickets*

Points at self saying not to confirm. Excuse me?

 

[crescent]

Bill Clinton lied under oath. There was no doubt about it. That was a crime. Perjury! They had him, right? The evidence was crystal clear. And they lost. And they were punished at the polls for trying. And I was very happy about that because the effort to expose details of his personal life as a means to a political end was disgusting.

It still is.

Should Kavanaugh be confirmed? Whatever. I was so appalled at the tactics of the Democrats that I now see that as a secondary issue.

I have no problem holding Kavanaugh to the same standards that Bill Clinton was held to.

Two months after the Senate failed to convict him, President Clinton was held in civil contempt of court by Judge Susan Webber Wright for giving misleading testimony regarding his sexual relationship with Lewinsky, and was also fined $90,000 by Wright.[2][3] Clinton declined to appeal the civil contempt of court ruling, citing financial problems,[2] but still maintained that his testimony complied with Wright's earlier definition of sexual relations.[2] In 2001, his license to practice law was suspended in Arkansas for five years and later by the United States Supreme Court.[4]

And this also:

On the day before leaving office in January 2001, President Clinton agreed to a five-year suspension of his Arkansas law license as part of an agreement with the independent counsel[clarification needed] to end the investigation.[31] Clinton was automatically suspended from the United States Supreme Court bar as a result of his law license suspension. However, as is customary, he was allowed 40 days to appeal an otherwise-automatic disbarment. The former President resigned from the Supreme Court bar during the 40 day appeals period.[32]

So, are we going to have a Supreme Court Justice who would be automatically suspended from the Supreme Court bar - exactly as Bill Clinton has been?

Again, and again and again - Bill Clinton lost his law license due to committing perjury. Holding Kavanaugh to the same standard would disqualify him from the Supremes.

If the women are telling the truth, then Kavanaugh has lied about more things, and much more serious things than Clinton did.

Even then, Clinton lied under oath about one thing (sex), Kavanaugh lied under oath about multiple things (access to documents, past drinking activities) completely independent of any of the sexual assault allegations. This means that even if Ford, Ramirez, and Swetnick are mistaken or lying, Kavanaugh would still have committed more perjury than Clinton did.