Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

[aleCcowaN]

I don't know about that one. What religion should be.
However, here's a guy, an atheist who converted from Catholicism, who thinks that "Y'all need Jesus!"

That's right and what Bill Maher says almost every Friday.

¡Alleluia, brothers and sisters!

Conservatives are traditionalists. You said yourself that they were appealing to traditional values, this makes them Conservatives.

And, to answer your unstated question, yes Marxism can be a Conservative ideology when it is no longer a reform and has become part of the tradition in it’s own right. The Communist leadership in China are Conservatives. Putin and the Oligarchy controlling Russia and Conservatives. Islamic terrorists are Conservatives. All are tided together by a common desire for what in their view is a traditional standard of morality or conduct and they all oppose new thoughts and ideas that challenge their traditional world.

And do not forget to add Cuba and Vietnam to that right but incomplete list.

 

[dann]

Certainly, Xi thought it was necessary to emphasize in his weekend speech that CCP cadres must act as “unyielding Marxist atheists … and bear in mind the party’s tenets.” Deploying an oddly religious phrase, he also told them to “consolidate their faith.”

It's funny that TBD always has complete and utter faith in Xi's words. Xi couldn't possibly be lying.
(And there's nothing odd about his religious phrase: He is asking the CCP cadres to "consolidate their faith" instead of believing what they can see with their own eyes and hear with their own ears: Chinese Newspeak!)

 

[David Mo]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, yes, some atheists do bad things and attribute those bad things to the cause of atheism. Some theists do bad things and attribute those bad things to the cause of their religion. I don't think either of those things says anything about either atheism or theism.

The problem is not if there are bad atheists. This is obvious.
The problem is whether atheism is the cause of their wickedness. And the same with regard to religion.
Secondly, it is a question of whether someone who does not believe in God is inclined to intolerance and violence.
BD has asserted these two things without proving them.

Moreover, the problem is not that there are opposing (anti) positions. This is normal. The problem is tolerance towards our enemies.

 

[Dancing David]

Did you find the part where the ******* Chinese put a million muslims in Camps??

The Uigher crack down has been ongoing for almost 90 years of conflict , the most recent Han oppression probably started over a decade ago, and has been extreme to say the least.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

The problem is not if there are bad atheists. This is obvious.
The problem is whether atheism is the cause of their wickedness.

It depends what you mean by both "atheism" and "the cause". If Xi is pushing atheism as being central to his brand of Communism (regardless of what he personally believes), and some of the people who are burning Bibles and patrolling camps imprisoning Muslims are doing so because they believe in Xi's brand of Communism then does that count as atheism being "the cause of their wickedness"?

And the same with regard to religion.

The question for me is whether something which can be said about one particular religion or religious person (or one particular philosophy being branded as atheism, or one particular atheist person) is being used to disparate every religion and religious person and/or every philosophy being branded as atheism and every atheist.

It seems to me that this thread was created to disparate atheism as a whole, and I've had plenty of experience of atheists on this board taking examples of violence and intolerance perpetrated by religious people in the name of religion as a reason to disparate all of religion and religious thought.

The problem is tolerance towards our enemies.

I don't have any enemies.

 

[dann]

Look on the bright side of things.

Which reminds me of yet another Christian attack on human rights:
https://grintageireland.com/features/monty-pythons-life-of-brian/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/30...-Of-Brian-film-ban-lifted-after-28-years.html

 

[Thor 2]

Well, as far as I'm concerned, yes, some atheists do bad things and attribute those bad things to the cause of atheism. Some theists do bad things and attribute those bad things to the cause of their religion. I don't think either of those things says anything about either atheism or theism.

The problem is not if there are bad atheists. This is obvious.
The problem is whether atheism is the cause of their wickedness. And the same with regard to religion.
Secondly, it is a question of whether someone who does not believe in God is inclined to intolerance and violence.
BD has asserted these two things without proving them.

Moreover, the problem is not that there are opposing (anti) positions. This is normal. The problem is tolerance towards our enemies.

Good attempt to answer something that I find intelligible David.

I think Squeegee is trying to say "Is atheism or theism responsible for bad things".

- As far as atheism is concerned there is no evidence for this - which doesn't stop TBG from making his sloppy argument to imply there is.

- As far as theism is concerned we have mountains of evidence clearly showing theism responsible for a multitude of wrong doings.

 

[jimbob]

Thanks for mentioning him. Except for his faith, he looks like the kind of person most non-theists would like to be, unlike many a theist that swarm around this forum.

There are several at my workplace - I tend to eat lunch with some of them most days* who decry so-called Christians who focus on the Old Testament rather than the message of the New.







*along with a devout Muslim, a fair number of atheists or agnostics, and a couple of Hindus.

 

[dann]

- As far as atheism is concerned there is no evidence for this - which doesn't stop TBG from making his sloppy argument to imply there is.

- As far as theism is concerned we have mountains of evidence clearly showing theism responsible for a multitude of wrong doings.

No, not really. This idea is just the atheist version of the way of thinking that TBD has represented in this thread so far on behalf of Christianity: If a self-proclaimed atheist does something bad, it must be because of his atheism! Atheism must be the thing that drives him, that motivates him.
A lot of atrocities have been committed in the name of one religion or another, but that does not in any way amount to "mountains (!) of evidence (!) clearly (!) showing" that "theism (is) responsible for a multitude of wrong-doings" committed by theists."

It is obvious why both T2 and TBD make the exact same mistake.

 

[Thor 2]

No, not really. This idea is just the atheist version of the way of thinking that TBD has represented in this thread so far on behalf of Christianity: If a self-proclaimed atheist does something bad, it must be because of his atheism! Atheism must be the thing that drives him, that motivates him.
A lot of atrocities have been committed in the name of one religion or another, but that does not in any way amount to "mountains (!) of evidence (!) clearly (!) showing" that "theism (is) responsible for a multitude of wrong-doings" committed by theists."

It is obvious why both T2 and TBD make the exact same mistake.

What is this tripe!

You start off by saying "No not really" but say nothing to refute what I have said. If you cannot see the "mountains of evidence" you must have been living under a rock for a long time. No access to history books detailing massacres in the name of religion, and no access to the news about this or that person, killing themselves and others whilst shouting out "God is Great". Does 9/11 ring a bell?

 

[jimbob]

Uh, no they said that they were appealing to traditional socialist values, but by all mean if y'all want to say that the Chinese Communist Party is "conservative" by all means, knock yourself out.



Certainly, Xi thought it was necessary to emphasize in his weekend speech that CCP cadres must act as “unyielding Marxist atheists … and bear in mind the party’s tenets.” Deploying an oddly religious phrase, he also told them to “consolidate their faith.”

Oh, I like Unyielding Marxist Atheists even better!

I'm pretty sure the problem is that State Communism is basically a religion that brooks no competitors.

 

[aleCcowaN]

I'm pretty sure the problem is that State Communism is basically a religion that brooks no competitors.

It is exactly that.

 

[dann]

What is this tripe!

You start off by saying "No not really" but say nothing to refute what I have said. If you cannot see the "mountains of evidence" you must have been living under a rock for a long time. No access to history books detailing massacres in the name of religion, and no access to the news about this or that person, killing themselves and others whilst shouting out "God is Great". Does 9/11 ring a bell?

Like I already said: That atheism is the root cause of any atrocity committed by a self-proclaimed atheist is as obvious to TBD as it is obvious to T2 that religion is the root cause of any atrocity committed by a self-proclaimed Christian or Muslim. And they both seem to think that it ought to be just as obvious to anybody else.

 

[dann]

Damn those Marxist Atheists!

The President of the Councils of State and Ministers of Cuba received a warm welcome in the historic Riverside Church, where he was surrounded by friends of the island.
Cuban President speaks at Riverside Church (Granma, Sep. 27, 2018)

Pope Francis and Fidel Castro had a half-hour meeting in Havana on Sunday at the former Cuban leader's home. The Vatican described the meeting at Castro's residence as informal and familial, with an exchange of books and discussion about big issues facing humanity, including Francis' recent encyclical on the environment and the global economic system.
Pope Francis meets with Fidel Castro during four-day tour of Cuba (Telegraph)

 

[Thor 2]

Like I already said: That atheism is the root cause of any atrocity committed by a self-proclaimed atheist is as obvious to TBD as it is obvious to T2 that religion is the root cause of any atrocity committed by a self-proclaimed Christian or Muslim. And they both seem to think that it ought to be just as obvious to anybody else.

There you go yet again, trying to talk your way out after making a silly statement.

Religions have heaps of scripture giving detailed instructions, about how and why to commit atrocities against those in opposite or non aligned camps. Atheism has no such scripture in spite of The Big Dog trying to point to communist doctrine in his tiresome way. There is no comparison.

 

[dann]

Religions have heaps of scripture giving detailed instructions, about how and why to commit atrocities against those in opposite or non aligned camps.

T2 seems to be unable to grasp the fact that believers choose what to believe and what to dismiss from various scriptures - be that "detailed instructions" or general nonsense.

Atheism has no such scripture in spite of The Big Dog trying to point to communist doctrine in his tiresome way.

As I meticulously documented and pointed out to TBD!

There is no comparison.

I didn't compare religion and atheism. I compared TBD and T2.

 

[abaddon]

they are Firm Marxist Atheists.....

And your pope loves it.

 

[Lambchops]

Mmmm, that's some good Pope...

 

[David Mo]

T2 seems to be unable to grasp the fact that believers choose what to believe and what to dismiss from various scriptures - be that "detailed instructions" or general nonsense.
.

All religions have gods, prophets and sacred texts that indicate what believers should do. To choose a religion is to choose between one and the other. The atheist has no gods, sacred books or prophets who speak in the name of a god.
"Coincidentally" almost all the sacred books and prophets order to eliminate heretics or unbelievers.
Tis is the main difference between believers and atheists.

 

[kellyb]

It's funny that TBD always has complete and utter faith in Xi's words. Xi couldn't possibly be lying.
(And there's nothing odd about his religious phrase: He is asking the CCP cadres to "consolidate their faith" instead of believing what they can see with their own eyes and hear with their own ears: Chinese Newspeak!)

I dunno. Current party leadership might really be interested in switching to something more actually Marxist. Over the last few decades, they've been sending students to the Chicago School of Economics to learn. And now they have an enormous housing bubble and they know it's a huge threat. So, they've been bringing over far left economists from all over the world to advise them on what to do.

https://michael-hudson.com/2018/06/chinas-housing-it-doesnt-have-to-be-this-way/

In your speech you argued that China’s most pressing policy challenge is to keep down the cost of housing and that the policies best suited to avoid what you call the “neo-rentier disease.” Can you give us a picture of what’s going on currently with housing in China, and then explain what you mean by “neo-rentier disease” and how the Chinese can avoid it.

The reason why housing prices are going up is because a house is worth whatever a bank will lend. And they are lending more and more, to enable new borrowers to bid up property prices.

You’d think that China would have learned this by looking at the West, or at least by reading Volume 3 of Capital. In fact the Peking University meeting, the Second World Conference on Marxism, David Harvey gave the opening and closing speech. His point was that the Chinese should read Volume III of Capital to understand why and how the volume of debt and credit grows exponentially. As banks get richer and richer, the One Percent get richer. They need to nurture more and more markets for their credit and debt creation. So they lend on easier and easier terms, at a rising proportion of the home’s value. So it’s bank credit that has been inflating the price of housing.

As one of the Russian attendees pointed out to me, “Marxism” is the Chinese word for politics. “Marxism with Chinese characteristics” means to doing what they want politically. But economically they’ve sent their students to the United States, to attend business schools to learn how U.S. financial engineering practices.

Shanghai is where Milton Friedman and the Chicago Boys came in the 1970s and early 80s, because the Chinese government worried that if western Marxists came over, they would tend to interfere with domestic Chinese politics. So actually, China had less exposure to foreign Marxian economics than to U.S.-style neoliberal teaching.

I highly recommend reading the whole thing.