Cont: Deeper than primes - Continuation 2

[Apathia]

More generally, AI is the source of any possible expression, and by being non-composed, its existence is independent of any of its composed expressions, including subjective\objective compositions.

So AI can't be defined in terms of subject, object or the possible interactions among them.

AI is the thing among NOthing, SOMEthing, EVERYthing, YESthing, where NO, SOME, EVERY, YES are its expressions, but not vise versa.

If one knows thing during NO, SOME, EVERY, YES expressions, then one is at UNITY awareness.

Yes. To put it in other words: Actual Infinity is Being. It's not a subject, object, or existing thing. Your Thing is Being, Awareness without an object.
As I said, the words get in the way. If we talk about Being we make an object of it and immediately lose it to existence. You can only Be it.

I want to communicate to others reading this what UNITY awareness feels like. My best example is interpersonal, and I'm afraid that a number of readers still won't see the direction its pointing. But there are times, sometimes with meditation and others just suddenly, that I feel in Love, but my Love has no object or objects. There's no person or group who is the Loved. Yet Love seamlessly reaches all. No one is singled out as the object of that Love, and yet there is no one who is not in that Love.

But this is a poor way of putting it, because you have to understand the Love is not some kind of light that shines from me. There's no subject either. There is the shining of Being. I just Love. I'm just Loving.

For the individuals I meet, they feel Love from me. They don't feel they are an object of some romantic agenda or confidence game. (At least many don't. I've met people who are suspiciously sure that that charisma is a ploy. I've also met those whose hearts resonated to that seamless compassion and were frightened that the UNITY was dissolving their ego identities. Such defensive people then accuse me of being "needy," or having poor personal boundaries. I give them their desired distance.)

I Love the person before me, not as the object of love, but as a participant in Being and UNITY.

If we speak of others, though we are all of each other, it seems the light does not shine from me but from the other. Whoever is before me at that moment is the front and center of all.

I would like to see everyone cultivating this UNITY awareness. It's the only real anecdote to our contemporary society where individuals are objects and commodities of marketing and xenophobic fear of others and outsiders has become the chief political motivation.

 

[Apathia]

If one knows thing during NO, SOME, EVERY, YES expressions, then one is at UNITY awareness.

In American socio-political language we have this phrase, "colorblind."
At best it means "I treat everyone with equality regardless of race."
At worst it means, "I pretend you're White."

In UNITY awareness reality is a seamless quilt in which we are all woven. Across the quilt may be different color regions and patterns. The "during" you speak of above isn't blind to those patterns, just as it isn't blind to the "NO, SOME, EVERY, YES." The Equality doesn't mean I ignore someone's gender and sexual orientation in how I express UNITY. I don't pin people into object categories, but I do let them be themselves and respect their circumstances.

Now back to the mushroom hunting. I respect Death Cap mushrooms and don't include them in my basket of strictly edibles.
What I'm saying here is that we do parse through collections based on patterns, The X/Y Complementarity may be the primary organizational principle, but internal to that we practically do a lot of classification. Remove that from mushroom hunting and we will come to grief (or our families do.)

Mathematics as contemporarily known is a game of patterns and classes. Are we to discard such, or does "during" acknowledge them in the light of UNITY?

 

[doronshadmi]

Yes. To put it in other words: Actual Infinity is Being. It's not a subject, object, or existing thing. Your Thing is Being, Awareness without an object.
As I said, the words get in the way. If we talk about Being we make an object of it and immediately lose it to existence. You can only Be it.

I want to communicate to others reading this what UNITY awareness feels like. My best example is interpersonal, and I'm afraid that a number of readers still won't see the direction its pointing. But there are times, sometimes with meditation and others just suddenly, that I feel in Love, but my Love has no object or objects. There's no person or group who is the Loved. Yet Love seamlessly reaches all. No one is singled out as the object of that Love, and yet there is no one who is not in that Love.

But this is a poor way of putting it, because you have to understand the Love is not some kind of light that shines from me. There's no subject either. There is the shining of Being. I just Love. I'm just Loving.

For the individuals I meet, they feel Love from me. They don't feel they are an object of some romantic agenda or confidence game. (At least many don't. I've met people who are suspiciously sure that that charisma is a ploy. I've also met those whose hearts resonated to that seamless compassion and were frightened that the UNITY was dissolving their ego identities. Such defensive people then accuse me of being "needy," or having poor personal boundaries. I give them their desired distance.)

I Love the person before me, not as the object of love, but as a participant in Being and UNITY.

If we speak of others, though we are all of each other, it seems the light does not shine from me but from the other. Whoever is before me at that moment is the front and center of all.

I would like to see everyone cultivating this UNITY awareness. It's the only real anecdote to our contemporary society where individuals are objects and commodities of marketing and xenophobic fear of others and outsiders has become the chief political motivation.

Apathia, you express it beautifully.


Being (or Existence) is not limited to its expressions, where given any collection of expressions, whether they are subjective or objective, the experience of UNITY is fundamentally non-composed, and this non-composed awareness is exactly the glue that gathers subjective and objective composed expressions into an organic harmonious whole, which is the optimal condition for endlessly finer novel expressions (they do not block each others' further development anymore).

Currently our universe is not at Unity awareness, but Life phenomena is exactly its way to eventually become an organic harmonious whole of endlessly finer novel expressions.

This evolution can happen in geometric series rate, and one of its biggest blocks is the notion that AI is its composed expressions (where such block is exactly Cantor's transfinite universe of infinite sets' fixed cardinality or the notion of Limits, which actually ignore infinitesimals (endlessly finer novel expressions)).

 

[doronshadmi]

Mathematics as contemporarily known is a game of patterns and classes. Are we to discard such, or does "during" acknowledge them in the light of UNITY?

We do not discard anything.

On the contrary, we can use Mathematics as the most powerful tool in order to actually be at UNITY awareness (where at UNITY awareness one naturally does not eat toxic mushrooms because of the principle of harmony that is deeply involved with UNITY awareness) and this notion is deeper than primes.

 

[Apathia]

Apathia, you express it beautifully.

I'm glad that regarding this most vital understanding we are certainly on the same page.

Being (or Existence) is not limited to its expressions, where given any collection of expressions, whether they are subjective or objective, the experience of UNITY is fundamentally non-composed, and this non-composed awareness is exactly the glue that gathers subjective and objective composed expressions into an organic harmonious whole, which is the optimal condition for endlessly finer novel expressions (they do not block each others' further development anymore).

Currently our universe is not at Unity awareness, but Life phenomena is exactly its way to eventually become an organic harmonious whole of endlessly finer novel expressions.

This evolution can happen in geometric series rate, and one of its biggest blocks is the notion that AI is its composed expressions (where such block is exactly Cantor's transfinite universe of infinite sets' fixed cardinality or the notion of Limits, which actually ignore infinitesimals (endlessly finer novel expressions)).

This mirrors somewhat teachings in the Transcendental Meditation Movement. As far as I know you're the only one seeing the concepts of complete composed Infinities, Limits, and Infinitesimals as used in Calculus as impediments to this evolution. In the TM context, I mean. There was a time the Roman Catholic Church vigorously opposed these concepts because they saw them as idolatrous thinking that made of the Absolute graven images.

 

[Apathia]

We do not discard anything.

On the contrary, we can use Mathematics as the most powerful tool in order to actually be at UNITY awareness (where at UNITY awareness one naturally does not eat toxic mushrooms because of the principle of harmony that is deeply involved with UNITY awareness) and this notion is deeper than primes.

I see the direction your answer goes. Accordingly, UNITY awareness would not need to concern itself with actions based on patterns and class identifications. It would in Being the mushrooms participate in a way that naturally wouldn't consume the toxic ones.

Interesting where you go. I want to see that movement with crystal clarity, so I'm going to be just a tad annoying with my questions.

Suppose I sent you to the supermarket with a list of things to buy (That list being a collection or asking for a collection according to its specifications.)
I ask you to purchase a dozen (12) eggs, 5 bananas, and 1 bottle of cooking oil.
Will you return with an indefinite number of items that includes, say 3 eggs and 9 onions, some cucumbers and a candle?
You see the instructions ask for certain specific classes of things at certain specific quantities. We have seen that collections involve "Uncertainty" and "Non-Local" elements; that they are open ended.
Yet basic applied math requires these strict class definitions, and is pretty much based on such activities.

Of course you aren't going to bring back a mess I didn't ask for. You would understand the counting of items in a class or category as perhaps a secondary principle of organization.

Would that hinder Unity awareness?

I understand meditation as a tool to be at UNITY awareness. What I want to understand is how one can be brought to UNITY awareness in doing Mathematics. But I'm thinking that what you mean isn't in doing calculations, but in doing the creation of a mathematical discipline. And more specifically, seeing the Logic Tree you presented above is the tool.

But the discipline's origin is in making these basic uses of number. It must support me adding 3 oranges and 2 apples to get 5 fruits.

But you said, "We do not discard anything," right?
(Except Cantor et al)

 

[doronshadmi]

But you said, "We do not discard anything," right?
(Except Cantor et al)

You are right, let's write it more precisely.


We do not discard anything which is related to the finite mathematical framework.


We fundamentally change the notion of infinity, as currently understood, learned and used especially among who call themselves "pure" mathematicians.


In both cases Uncertainty and Redundancy (under finite or potential infinite collections) are the fundamental concepts of information, where strict information is no more than some particular case (an example of a finite case was given in www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12420669&postcount=3113).

 

[doronshadmi]

This mirrors somewhat teachings in the Transcendental Meditation Movement.

UNITY awareness is not limited to any particular organization or a particular Life form.

As for TM, please look at http://www.ijmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/all05.pdf.


A quote taken from this work:

We step back from our analysis for a moment and list a number of possible relationships between consciousness and matter:

(1) Matter emerges from some unknowable realm, evolves, and eventually produces consciousness (physicalism or materialism, with the “hard problem” of consciousness).

(2) Matter emerges from some unknowable realm, evolves, but does not produce consciousness; that is, consciousness is an illusion (physicalism or materialism, with no consciousness).

(3) Some kind of personal or impersonal consciousness is primary; from it, in some unknowable way, matter arises and is separate from consciousness. (This includes philosophies of idealism as well as theories of creation by a Creator.)

(4) Consciousness is all there is and does not create anything physical outside itself; matter is real only in terms of consciousness or as an appearance within consciousness. (This is the argument presented in this article.)

(5) Both consciousness and matter exist and neither arises from the other (dualism, often associated with the philosopher Rene Descartes).

(6) Consciousness and matter are two different ways of looking at one reality (neutral monism).

(7) Both consciousness and matter are illusions (in a weak form, skepticism; in a strong form, nihilism).

In this paper, I suggest that the fourth possibility accords best with both modern scientific theories and logical reasoning and is therefore the most acceptable hypothesis.

Everything here will be built on the single hypothesis that consciousness is all there is.

Since my approach is Neutral Monism that is based on visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning skills, I do not follow after what is learned by the TM movement (this article is based only on verbal_symbolic reasoning skills).

 

[Apathia]

You are right, let's write it more precisely.


We do not discard anything which is related to the finite mathematical framework.


We fundamentally change the notion of infinity, as currently understood, learned and used especially among who call themselves "pure" mathematicians.


In both cases Uncertainty and Redundancy (under finite or potential infinite collections) are the fundamental concepts of information, where strict information is no more than some particular case (an example of a finite case was given in www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12420669&postcount=3113).

Thank you for drawing this out more precisely and stating the existence and use of the particular case of strict information. I know we have covered this ground before, but clarity on this point is essential for saving credibility.

 

[Apathia]

UNITY awareness is not limited to any particular organization or a particular Life form.

As for TM, please look at http://www.ijmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/all05.pdf.


A quote taken from this work:


Since my approach is Neutral Monism that is based on visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning skills, I do not follow after what is learned by the TM movement (this article is based only on verbal_symbolic reasoning skills).

Thanks.

My own preferred but not dogmatically held position is a Neutral Monism that is not even referred to in that article. But some other time I'll discuss it.

 

[doronshadmi]

Thanks.

My own preferred but not dogmatically held position is a Neutral Monism that is not even referred to in that article. But some other time I'll discuss it.

In www.ijmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/IJMACvol2no1.pdf
it is shown how Paul Corazza from Maharishi University of Management struggles to provide new foundation of the Natural numbers and Large Cardinals, by using only verbal_symbolic reasoning skills.

By doing so he misses the notion that Actual Infinity is non-composed, which actually prevents one to define the size of the set of natural numbers (or more generally, inductive set) in terms of Actual Infinity, because of a very simple reason, non-empty sets are composed mathematical objects, so they can't be defined in terms of Actual Infinity.

In order to avoid such verbal_symbolic-only struggle (which its aim is actually to communicate with verbal_symbolic-only reasoners) one simply naturally uses visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning skills during a given mathematical work.

In page 8 of www.ijmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/IJMACvol2no1.pdf , it can be observed how Paul Corazza misses the notion of Actual Infinity as a non-composed thing, exactly because he uses only his verbal_symbolic reasoning skills in order to express his mathematical work, so called, rigorously.

By being nice to the community of classical mathematicians, one actually avoids visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning as its foundation for rigorous and truly novel mathematical work.

By being nice to the community of classical mathematicians, one becomes a blocker (more details are given in www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12434013&postcount=3163 or www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12433584&postcount=3160).

 

[Apathia]

By being nice to the community of classical mathematicians, one actually avoids visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning as its foundation for rigorous and truly novel mathematical work.

By being nice to the community of classical mathematicians, one becomes a blocker (more details are given in www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12434013&postcount=3163 or www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12433584&postcount=3160).

The Mathematical Community dismisses you immediately, because as you have repeated, they only follow the rules of verbal_symbolic thinking and have no place for visual_spatial thinking and the conjunctive principle (Biassociation). What's more they aren't keen on giving up their specialized infinities, limits, and their Infinitesimals that you see block the expansion of mind and creativity. What's more you see their dallying with these false infinities as hindering the evolution of the species. What's more you see their kind of thinking by classes as a threat to the future of the species. Also I remember you saying something to the effect that this kind of Mathematics bound to the verbal_symbolic and misrepresenting Infinity, not only hinders UNITY awareness but is responsible for creating the Science that produces harmful technology such as Nuclear Physics.

So I'm not surprised that you don't have any sympathy for the Mathematical Community and see them as adversarial to your core values.

My suggestion is that the problem requires a change of heart more than a change of mind. I mean don't launch an academic attack but encourage people to practice non-judgmental attention, Awareness, Mindfulness. Help us to become more aware of how we think (and how you think), so that we and you can transcend mere thinking.

Sadly we live in a world where individuals are treated as objects and commodities of marketing, and xenophobic fear of others and outsiders has become the chief political motivation. In my country there are people clinging blindly to a dangerous president who has them in a deep, delusive thrall. I find it counterproductive to make them "Those people!" and think of them in terms of enemy. Our lives, our very persons, are not separated from each other. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a contention with what you find are false beliefs. And I'm not saying "be nice." I'm saying be compassionate.

I'm not a paragon of compassion, but I do return to it when I bring myself back to the SOURCE.

 

[doronshadmi]

The Mathematical Community dismisses you immediately, because as you have repeated, they only follow the rules of verbal_symbolic thinking and have no place for visual_spatial thinking and the conjunctive principle (Biassociation). What's more they aren't keen on giving up their specialized infinities, limits, and their Infinitesimals that you see block the expansion of mind and creativity. What's more you see their dallying with these false infinities as hindering the evolution of the species. What's more you see their kind of thinking by classes as a threat to the future of the species. Also I remember you saying something to the effect that this kind of Mathematics bound to the verbal_symbolic and misrepresenting Infinity, not only hinders UNITY awareness but is responsible for creating the Science that produces harmful technology such as Nuclear Physics.

So I'm not surprised that you don't have any sympathy for the Mathematical Community and see them as adversarial to your core values.

My suggestion is that the problem requires a change of heart more than a change of mind. I mean don't launch an academic attack but encourage people to practice non-judgmental attention, Awareness, Mindfulness. Help us to become more aware of how we think (and how you think), so that we and you can transcend mere thinking.

Sadly we live in a world where individuals are treated as objects and commodities of marketing, and xenophobic fear of others and outsiders has become the chief political motivation. In my country there are people clinging blindly to a dangerous president who has them in a deep, delusive thrall. I find it counterproductive to make them "Those people!" and think of them in terms of enemy. Our lives, our very persons, are not separated from each other. I'm not saying you shouldn't have a contention with what you find are false beliefs. And I'm not saying "be nice." I'm saying be compassionate.

I'm not a paragon of compassion, but I do return to it when I bring myself back to the SOURCE.

Dear Apathia I completely agree with you that without heart one can't develop mind and vise versa.

By following your beautiful notion visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning is actually heart AND mind reasoning.

One of the known cases of heart AND mind reasoning is the life story of Jill Bolte Taylor as given in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTrJqmKoveU.

Her story actually exposes the natural abilities of a recovering human being.

I suggest that this recovery is deeply related to our abilities to combine heart AND mind at any moment of our life, by enliven the common source of hart AND mind in our daily life, called UNITY awareness.

 

[Apathia]

Dear Apathia I completely agree with you that without heart one can't develop mind and vise versa.

By following your beautiful notion visual_spatial AND verbal_symbolic reasoning is actually heart AND mind reasoning.

Thank you Doron for putting some words in my mouth that had been a part of my post, but I cut out because it was just too many words.

In Buddhism there is the "Citta," sometimes it's translated "Mind," "Nature," or "Essence." but it's actually meaning is something like, body-mind, for it doesn't separate the head and heart. "Bodhicitta" is the awakened and transformed body-mind of both intellectual thoughts and emotional intentions. The Buddha Nature, in all that matters, is the UNITY awareness we are speaking of.

In Zen it's cultivated by the most simple practice of just sitting and letting the minds chatter pass away while paying attention to what is happening before us. The mind's labeling and classifying are taken from the drivers seat and given a back seat. We don't put this mind in the trunk. It still gets to use the map and we value its advice. (especially when mushroom hunting)The important point is that we learn to see what's really going on rather than the fantasies in our heads. Taking this into daily life we cultivate Head AND Heart.

"Right Thinking" isn't merely correct philosophy or dismissal of "negative thoughts" It's Head and Heart participating creatively in the seamless reality in which we have our being mutually create each other.

There are a number of ways to practice bodhicitta in meditation. Individuals find what works best for them. I know some people who just cant focus that way. For them their best meditation is intimate conversation where there is mutual Listening and sharing of Heart. Some people find it in the flow of being totally focused on a creative task or performance. Wherever, however I find that GRACE, I celebrate it.

One of the known cases of heart AND mind reasoning is the life story of Jill Bolte Taylor as given in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTrJqmKoveU.

Her story actually exposes the natural abilities of a recovering human being.

I suggest that this recovery is deeply related to our abilities to combine heart AND mind at any moment of our life, by enliven the common source of hart AND mind in our daily life, called UNITY awareness.

Yes. I remember her story. I wouldn't wish a stroke on anyone. The compensation in her case was that it gave her an opportunity to discover what her intellectual mind was ignoring and the connections the analytical mind severs in its attempt to explain by taking things apart.

 

[doronshadmi]

Wherever, however I find that GRACE, I celebrate it.

That heart AND mind GRACE must not be eliminated from a powerful tool like Mathematics, exactly because powerful mind without graceful heart, can easily lead us to self destruction (and technologically we are already in the zone of self destruction).

So I don't think that we have the time to randomly find that GRACE.

We have no choice but to systematically develop heart AND mind right from their non-composed source (as already given in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12434013&postcount=3163).

We need right now Mathematics that its day-by-day expressions is not less than heart AND mind reasoning, where such a goal can't be achieved without actually systematically develop ourselves into UNITY awareness.

 

[doronshadmi]

jsfisher, maybe you will find www.ijmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/CorazzaVol_3_2017.pdf interesting.

 

[jsfisher]

jsfisher, maybe you will find www.ijmac.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/CorazzaVol_3_2017.pdf interesting.

...or not.

Still, I am enjoying dialogue the between you and Apathia. It has provided new insight into why Philosophy has little relevance beyond questions of human values and ethics.

And as I have said many times before: Mathematics doesn't care what you want to believe or disbelieve. It will continue to be useful and consistent (as far as we know) independent of any protest you offer. If you ever produce something even vaguely like that, then you will capture my full attention. For now, though, it is amusing but little else.

 

[Apathia]

That heart AND mind GRACE must not be eliminated from a powerful tool like Mathematics, exactly because powerful mind without graceful heart, can easily lead us to self destruction (and technologically we are already in the zone of self destruction).

So I don't think that we have the time to randomly find that GRACE.

We have no choice but to systematically develop heart AND mind right from their non-composed source (as already given in http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12434013&postcount=3163).

We need right now Mathematics that its day-by-day expressions is not less than heart AND mind reasoning, where such a goal can't be achieved without actually systematically develop ourselves into UNITY awareness.

I'm not so random.

I'm not involved in the discipline of Mathematics in a theoretical and developmental way. At most it only touches my life in the calculations I must do on the job, and they are mostly done for me by the software we use. Where ethics is involved with it, is that I don't short change the customer/patients, or undercount the number of pills that go into their prescription bottles. At the register I see them as persons, not cattle for company profits.

I have no idea how one expresses UNITY awareness in a calculation that can be done by a non-sentient device. At best I understand doing any task in awareness and with focus: being in the flow with it.

You have demonstrated uncertain and indefinite quantiles in addition through various trees and charts. In them it seems the usage gets no farther than addition and subtraction. What's more the practical calculation we make involve only the strictly defined quantities, and by intention ignore all those relations not strictly defined to the tasks. If one stopped to consider all those indefinites that aren't directly involved, s/he'd trip over all those variables, and hir math would be as weak as mine. (I only improved in doing math when the calculator was invented.)

So far I've only seen doing math with UNITY awareness to mean not doing any of the Mathematics that involves the phantasm of completed Infinities, limits, and infinitesimals.

Till there is some kind of math that can function as a spiritual ritual ("a Tea Ceremony Algorithm," I don't worry my head at what I'm poor at anyway. I was the kid who forgot how to do long division every Summer and flunked Calculus. So like Whitman:

"When I heard the learn’d astronomer,
When the proofs, the figures, were ranged in columns before me,
When I was shown the charts and diagrams, to add, divide,
and measure them,
When I sitting heard the astronomer where he lectured with
much applause in the lecture-room,
How soon unaccountable I became tired and sick,
Till rising and gliding out I wander’d off by myself,
In the mystical moist night-air, and from time to time,
Look’d up in perfect silence at the stars."

 

[Apathia]

If you ever produce something even vaguely like that, then you will capture my full attention.

Indeed! If it is what it's supposed to be, and fully intended to be, it will by its very nature capture your full attention.

 

[doronshadmi]

Mathematics doesn't care ...

jsfisher, can you please tell us what X needs in order to claim that X doesn't care (or cares)?