TERFs crash London Pride

[Rolfe]

If you’d stick to your concerns and leave out the insults and invective, or maybe just not put words in people’s mouths...

I have to report that it is completely impossible to tell the difference between your hyperbole and your genuine opinions.

Ok, hang on, so a trans woman who doesn't get bottom surgery is a Man Invading Womens' Spaces and probably an "autogynephile" (AGP for short) who is really just a sex pervert getting off on the idea of being a woman and not a Real Transgender Woman (because of course you don't really have a problem with Real Transgender Women except that they're not Real Women and that they're a quiet minority next to the "AGP" sex pervert men who are using them to muscle in on women's spaces)

But a trans man who DOES get bottom surgery is probably a sad, misled, mutilated young lady who will regret their foolish choices but force down these regrets due to Sunk Costs and Social Pressures (because of course you don't really have a problem with Real Transgender Men except that they're not Real Men and that they're a tiny minority next to the just oceans of people who ought to be butch lesbians or who are just going through a phase but got Socially Railroaded, Brainwashed and Tricked into gender reassignment surgery).

Am I doing Rule of So right?

 

[kellyb]

It's still unclear what the timescales and appointments required are to get as far as the 'as soon as a month after this' point, and the guy you're talking about had been closed to new patients and was just in June reopening with a backlog of 200-odd inquiries. It's a private service but whenever its patients are also working with the NHS they are on its timescale. At any rate, this doesn't sound like "young people getting hormones on their parents' insurance without their knowledge" type stuff.

That's not what we were talking about. We were talking about "gatekeeping" in general.

 

[kellyb]

'Gatekeeping' is loaded and could mean anything but ASSESSMENTS and COUNSELING and TAKING IT SLOW and QUESTIONING and ENCOURAGING INTROSPECTION and all that stuff you seem to think everyone wants to abolish, are STANDARD.

One more piece of evidence that it's (basic gatekeeping) not standard, from reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransge...ch_country_has_the_least_gatekeeping_im_sick/
Someone asks:

Which country has the least gatekeeping? I'm sick of waiting and every day feels like I'm running out of time.

Answers:

Canada seems pretty good. We have informed consent and I have heard of people getting on hormones almost instantly, they just have to get a blood test first.

In France it took me a month to be on HRT (because they needed blood samples) and they don't ask you proof of your transidentity.

Argentina by far, I don't need prescription to buy hormones in any pharmacy and both the public health system and private insurances must cover HRT and many surgeries for transgender people at 100%. BTW the public system is not the best due a big demand, but it's free.

Canada informed consent is pretty awesome. Took me three dr appointments to begin HRT. First meeting just paperwork second appointment checking levels and third prescribing HRT.

Western Coast of the United States. When I was ready for hormones, I just drove 30 minutes to an informed consent doctor and walked out approved for blood work and cleared to start HRT.

Took me a week in Australia solely because of wait times between Doctor, psych, follow up doctor appointment

you can get it right away in the US with informed consent.

Read the thread.

 

[Darat]

Nothing is wrong with it. I'm just showing that they don't have a prerequisite amount of counseling needed to enter their system.

They offer counselling, surely they would be somewhere you'd expect some people to go for counselling?

 

[Darat]

https://gendercare.co.uk/faq.shtml#timescales


He's listed here as one of the ones to choose for "I want to see someone who can diagnose gender dysphoria."
https://gendercare.co.uk/how-to-use-gendercare.shtml

Someone whose been going for NHS counselling for a year or two might go to them and the clinician may assess the person as being ready to move to a medical treatment, so it isn't really a month.

I think you are reading much too much into the brief descriptions on that site.

 

[tyr_13]

The 'assigned at birth' thing is not, in any way, saying that what the doctor's write down at birth creates gender, nor anything of the like. It is saying that is what they assigned on the paperwork. This is based on what they believe the sex to be visually. And yes, they do in fact get it wrong for both.

That should really not be surprising. They also assign who the father is at birth, and they often get that wrong as well. These concepts are not different. Someone assigned female at birth describes the paperwork, which might not match reality in sex or gender, in exactly the same way that someone who was assigned 'Bob' as their father at birth might actually have been sired by 'Tim the milkman'.

Taking this to be some cult insanity rather than a valid description of how birth certificates work is very telling.

 

[kellyb]

Someone whose been going for NHS counselling for a year or two might go to them and the clinician may assess the person as being ready to move to a medical treatment, so it isn't really a month.

I think you are reading much too much into the brief descriptions on that site.

What do you make of this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransge...ch_country_has_the_least_gatekeeping_im_sick/

 

[ponderingturtle]

If, say 60% or more of the young adult females who would have been proud "bull dykes" at 25 are now quite often being socially channeled into seeing themselves as men in women's bodies and undergoing SR meds and surgery, there could be far fewer 23 year old "butch lesbians" out there now, and you might not notice by virtue of your social circle drawing in the relatively few who remain.

Are they or are they more gender queer and creative? And are they pressured or simply being supported in who they are?

Where are the trans men who say they felt pressured to be transmen instead of butch women?

Or is this like the fear about how many more gay people there are now just look how visible they are.

So how can you say they are pressured now instead of they are expressing themselves now and used to be pressured to keep a feminine gender while butch?

 

[ponderingturtle]

The way I'm seeing this is, suppose this is an exaggeration:





That has to be something of an exaggeration. But what if it's 50% correct? Or 30%? That's still a pretty huge deal.

It does not fit the experience of the trans men I know, for all of them it was years before surgical or hormonal intervention.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I wonder how many of the people who are worried about trans men changing their mind side with doctors who ignore women's desire to be flat after mastectomy and leave extra tissue just in case. Should be a slam dunk to agree with the doctors they they shouldn't do what their patients want right?

https://womenintheworld.com/2018/09/10/breast-cancer-patients-wishes-are-being-ignored-by-their-surgeons-often-while-theyre-unconscious/

C

 

[luchog]

What do you make of this?
https://www.reddit.com/r/asktransge...ch_country_has_the_least_gatekeeping_im_sick/

Unconfirmed anecdotes, a lot of which violates what we do know about the path to transitioning that is enforced by codes of practice.

Some of it certainly could be true, some doctors will, in fact, violate codes of practice to give patients what they want, if it puts money in their pockets. The same can be said about over-prescription of opiods and amphetamines by "drug doctors". There are also doctors who will violate professional ethics to push their pet medical theories, including prescribing potentially very dangerous "alternative" remedies, or denying certain forms of standard medical care because doing so conflicts with their "deeply held beliefs".

Every profession has their unethical practitioners who will do anything for a quick buck, and a handful of crusaders for their pet causes. This does not in any way indicate that that is the norm for the medical industry as a whole, nor that ethical standards and practices do not hold sway for the majority. It also does not indicate a conspiracy on the part of trans activists to force more people to transition, as claimed by certain other commentors in this thread.

In any case, these are all adults in the article that you link to, not adolescents.

 

[kellyb]

Are they or are they more gender queer and creative? And are they pressured or simply being supported in who they are?

Where are the trans men who say they felt pressured to be transmen instead of butch women?

Or is this like the fear about how many more gay people there are now just look how visible they are.

So how can you say they are pressured now instead of they are expressing themselves now and used to be pressured to keep a feminine gender while butch?

Why did you leave out the last line of that post, "But without good data, we're all just guessing about this stuff"?

 

[kellyb]

Some of it certainly could be true, some doctors will, in fact, violate codes of practice to give patients what they want, if it puts money in their pockets.

I think believing people seeking meds and surgery if they say they're sure this is what they want might BE the standard of care, more often than not now.

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.or...der-and-gender-nonconforming-patients/2016-11

Informed consent as a model of care has evolved as an alternative to the standard model of care recommended by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health’s Standards of Care, version 7, which emphasizes the importance of mental health professionals’ role in diagnosing gender dysphoria and in assessing the appropriateness and readiness for gender-affirming medical treatments. By contrast, the informed consent model for gender-affirming treatment seeks to acknowledge and better support the patient’s right to, and capability for, personal autonomy in choosing care options without the required involvement of a mental health professional.

Informed Consent Model of Gender-Affirming Care
The informed consent model for gender-affirming treatment, proposed in a number of transgender health guidelines and by practicing clinicians [16-19] seeks to better acknowledge and support patients’ right of, and their capability for, personal autonomy in choosing care options without the requirement of external evaluations or therapy by mental health professionals.

There are no federal guidelines for which services are required or for what constitutes proof of medical necessity for services at this time. In the experience of the authors in a large urban medical facility, the services covered and criteria for accessing them are currently not uniform;

Also:
https://www.sccgov.org/sites/bhd/in...ender-and-gender-nonbinary-people-6-17-16.pdf

Assessing readiness and appropriateness
While historically a “referral letter” from a mental health professional was required prior to initiation
of hormone therapy, many large volume and experienced providers of transgender care have for
years used an “informed consent” pathway to hormone initiation. WPATH Standards of Care, 7th
Version recognizes both of these pathways to the initiation of gender-affirming hormone therapy as
valid. Medical providers who feel comfortable making an assessment and diagnosis of gender
dysphoria, as well as assessing for capacity to provide informed consent (able to understand risks,
benefits, alternatives, unknowns, limitations, risks of no treatment) are able to initiate genderaffirming
hormones without a prior assessment or referral from a mental health provider

 

[luchog]

I think believing people seeking meds and surgery if they say they're sure this is what they want might BE the standard of care, more often than not now.

https://journalofethics.ama-assn.or...der-and-gender-nonconforming-patients/2016-11

Also:
https://www.sccgov.org/sites/bhd/in...ender-and-gender-nonbinary-people-6-17-16.pdf

Not sure I agree with that as the standard of care, and hopefully that trend will reverse itself.

But this is obviously aimed at informed adults. Any evidence that this same standard is being used for adolescents as well?

 

[kellyb]

Not sure I agree with that as the standard of care, and hopefully that trend will reverse itself.

But this is obviously aimed at informed adults. Any evidence that this same standard is being used for adolescents as well?

I'm not sure how I feel about it, either. Part of me actually agrees with the notion of simple informed consent, especially since on the reddit boards a lot of people talk about doing HRT "DIY", which I guess means black market or ordering the meds online. And also, "gatekeeping" historically does sound like it was completely oppressive just 10 or 15 years ago, like some sort of long and invasive trial before a judge. It might be the nature of the informed consent I'd need to know about to make a call either way. I was a little alarmed by this in the second link:

Medical providers who feel comfortable making an assessment and diagnosis of gender dysphoria, as well as assessing for capacity to provide informed consent (able to understand risks, benefits, alternatives, unknowns, limitations, risks of no treatment) are able to initiate gender affirming hormones without a prior assessment or referral from a mental health provider

Regarding adolescents, I seriously doubt it's even close to as standard.

I really do find this worrisome, though:

https://vimeo.com/185178522

I think she might be considered one of the world's leading "experts" on transgenderism in children.

 

[Myriad]

To me, "gatekeeping" implies that someone other than the patient (i.e. the gatekeeper) has a final veto.

In my town, the building code inspector (Inspectional Services) can make me jump through all sorts of hoops but must issue me a building permit if I do so. The Conservation Commission can deny me a building permit no matter how many hoops I jump through. The latter is a gatekeeper.

 

[kellyb]

To me, "gatekeeping" implies that someone other than the patient (i.e. the gatekeeper) has a final veto.

Requiring X amount of counseling, or X sort of mental health clearance, or X history of absolutely anything is all a matter of giving some other person a final veto in terms of wait period if nothing else.

The Conservation Commission can deny me a building permit no matter how many hoops I jump through. The latter is a gatekeeper.

Forcing transpeople to "jump through hoops" is what the trans community means by gatekeeping. Anything that's not the informed consent model is some type of gatekeeping.

 

[Mycroft]

That has to be something of an exaggeration. But what if it's 50% correct? Or 30%? That's still a pretty huge deal.

You would need to present evidence to assert it's even 1%, and there has been no evidence so far.

 

[kellyb]

You would need to present evidence to assert it's even 1%, and there has been no evidence so far.

There's no evidence either way.

 

[kellyb]

I guess another way of looking at it is, what percentage of transmen considered themselves lesbian before seeing themselves as transmen?