TERFs crash London Pride

caveman1917 said:
That's not what this data says. Of the 134 complaints regarding sexual assault, voyeurism and harassment in changing rooms at public swimming pools over 2017-2018, 120 took place in unisex ones and 14 in single-sex ones, even though unisex ones only account for less than half of the total.

What was the data of your study, how many incidents etc?
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That's not measuring the same thing as the study you're being critical of. Yours is a red-herring. It does not address the issue.
 
tyr_13 said:
That's not measuring the same thing as the study you're being critical of. Yours is a red-herring. It does not address the issue.
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Or a shifting of the goalpost, but yeah.

Bathroom bills when it comes to "regular" bathrooms are silly. Changing rooms are a whole different issue, and a lot more complex.
 
That's a stupid way of expressing it. I'm guessing they mean the incidence has increased by a factor of over 45x, but that presentation does my head in.

Now we expect the parade of closed minds in this thread to appear insisting that these girls were born with blue boy brains all along, but in previous years their predecessors were so repressed they didn't come forward so it's all good. (Yeah, cutting off 13-year-old girls' healthy breasts is good. Maybe in five years they'll be old enough to decide to get a tattoo to hide the scars. And have you seen the scarring left by these phalloplasty operations? It's barbaric.)

The continuing low incidence of older women coming out as trans rather argues against that. As does the (unpublicised and hotly denied) incidence of women in their twenties realising they made a horrible mistake and trying to go back. Deep voices, beards, no breasts, male pattern baldness, osteoporosis and all.

Another curious feature is the cluster presentation, with several girls in the same social group all announcing they're trans together, or in quick succession. Sometimes the entire social group transitions together. But it's just coincidence all these girls born with boy brains were in the same class at school...

Of course it's the new anorexia nervosa. And transitioning is the equivalent of treating anorexia nervosa by handing out a 500-calorie diet sheet and scheduling the patient for a gastric band and liposuction.

But hey, transphobic and bigoted to point any of that out. I'm just heart sorry for these girls, wasting their youth in the pursuit of maimed and infertile bodies.
 
kellyb said:
What in the world are you talking about?
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Perhaps I should've said: Appeal to lack of authority. (it's really just the opposite side of the coin from appeal to authority)

As you can easily verify, all reasons for why the study must be discounted have been based on various appeals to lack of authority of the people producing it, and none have been based on the contents.
 
caveman1917 said:
Perhaps I should've said: Appeal to lack of authority. (it's really just the opposite side of the coin from appeal to authority)

As you can easily verify, all reasons for why the study must be discounted have been based on various appeals to lack of authority of the people producing it, and none have been based on the contents.
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No, it's not just "lack of authority". It's that they're a known quack organization publishing in a quack journal. You'd have to spend hours (as well as possibly lots of money to get through paywalls) double checking all of their citations in the paper to see if the argument holds water. And that's not even taking into consideration the likelihood that they're cherry-picking.
 
Rolfe said:
Now we expect the parade of closed minds in this thread to appear insisting that these girls were born with blue boy brains all along, but in previous years their predecessors were so repressed they didn't come forward so it's all good.
(...)
Another curious feature is the cluster presentation, with several girls in the same social group all announcing they're trans together, or in quick succession. Sometimes the entire social group transitions together. But it's just coincidence all these girls born with boy brains were in the same class at school...
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If you’d stick to your concerns and leave out the insults and invective, or maybe just not put words in people’s mouths...

Yes obviously cliques and trends and things like that exist. A bunch of young people experimenting with gender presentation together doesn’t give me any kind of ‘sky is falling’ feeling at all. Even a whole bunch of friends all wanting to talk to a therapist about it, so what? The point where I’d worry about dangerous over-enthusiasts in the medical profession is whole groups of friends all actually getting puberty delayed together - I feel like that sort of thing should be looked at.

The cluster presentation itself isn’t as suspicious as all that. It’s pretty common for most of the queer kids in a school or town to be friends and hang out together.

Again, having a lot of kids referred and evaluated is not troubling to me at all. Over-treatment would be troubling. I have not yet seen anything that makes me worry that’s happening on the regular.
 
Lithrael said:
The cluster presentation itself isn’t as suspicious as all that. It’s pretty common for most of the queer kids in a school or town to be friends and hang out together.
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The cluster presentation in this case is, if the parental reports are accurate. Gay kids don't cluster together before they know they're gay.

Yes obviously cliques and trends and things like that exist. A bunch of young people experimenting with gender presentation together doesn’t give me any kind of ‘sky is falling’ feeling at all.
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Gender dysphoria is not a "trend", tho. It's not like wanting to die your hair an unusual color. And they're not just "experimenting with gender presentation" - they're "seeking sexual reassignment medicine" and surgery.

Over-treatment would be troubling. I have not yet seen anything that makes me worry that’s happening on the regular.
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I can't tell if it is or isn't. I haven't seen high-quality evidence confirming or refuting the notion. That it could be is somewhat worrying to me, though.
 
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Lithrael said:
If you’d stick to your concerns and leave out the insults and invective, or maybe just not put words in people’s mouths...
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That's pretty rich, in the thread where I've been reviled as a bigot and a transphobe, and where I've been repeatedly mischaracterised as believing all sorts of stuff I've repeatedly said I don't believe.

A bunch of young people experimenting with any sort of presentation isn't exactly unusual. A bunch of girls who have generally been pretty unremarkably girly in earlier life suddenly announcing that they're really boys and want to have a double mastectomy and start taking testosterone, which is what we're talking about, is something else.

The real concern, though, as Kelly says, is the way these girls are being managed. The trans cult has such a stranglehold on health providers that it has become impossible to say, well hold on a bit, maybe you should explore how you feel without permanently altering your body, at least at first. That's transphobia and conversion therapy. It's denying the "young men" their authentic selves and it will lead to suicide. Parents who express concern with the fast-tracking to medicalisation (some girls getting prescriptions for testosterone on their second or even first appointment) are told "do you want a live son or a dead daughter?" as if there's no other possibility.

The mantra is, if she says she's trans she is trans, and it's bigoted hate to suggest a cautious approach. Girls are sourcing hormones off the internet and self-medicating. Girls are going to college and immediately being given access to hormones and mastectomies (in the USA on their parents' health insurance) without their parents knowing. All at breakneck speed, without any pause for reflection or reconsideration.

And one thing that's striking in all the studies of these girls is the high prevalence of psychiatric co-morbidities such as being on the autism spectrum or having other psychiatric or psychological problems. Transitioning is presented as the solution to everything, oh look they have these psychiatric problems because they're trans, so if they transition they'll be fine. No consideration of the possibility that the psychiatric problem is all mixed up with the trans identity, and that sorting out the psychiatric problem might alleviate the dysphoria, no, it's transphobic to suggest that.

The paradox here is that on the one hand anyone who says they're trans, or even muses that they may be trans, is immediatly affirmed as trans, because the child is always right, the child knows best. By this way of looking at it, there are no false alarms. But then when someone desists after a few years of being trans, and writes about it, and expresses regret, and wishes she hadn't been enabled quite so quickly to destroy her body and her fertility, this is dismissed as "she wasn't really trans to begin with!"

No ****, Sherlock! That's kind of what these bigoted transphobic terf witches are trying to point out. Some adolescents and young adults who think they're trans, actually might not be. So a watchful waiting approach is suggested. Treat other psychiatric co-morbidities and discourage actual body modifications for a few years. But that's transphobic.

This is an enormous scandal in the making. We're going to look back on this in the same light as the Satanic abuse recovered memories outrage. The lawsuits are already beginning. But hey, you don't have to listen to me, just wait and see what's coming down the road.


ETA: Yes, it seems likely that many of these girls are actually gay, and may be clustering together for that reason. But the concern is not that lesbian girls socialise together, but that gender-nonconforming girls (many of whom are probably lesbian) are being led to believe that they're actually boys (nearly always boys, they don't often claim to be men). This is a dreadfully backwards step. Feminists fought for generations to allow anyone to express their personality and presentation any way they damn well pleased, irrespective of their biological sex. Sweep away the boxes and let everyone be themselves.

Now, though, the boxes are everything. It's all about how you "present". If you're a boy who likes pink and glitter you can't just be a boy who likes pink and glitter, you must really have a girl's brain and you must transition! If you're a girl who is uncomfortable with her developing body, and with the stares and comments it's attracting from porn-soaked boys and men, and you'd rather hide yourself away in jeans and baggy shirts and grunge, you must be a boy!

Did you look at the statistics? An absolutely enormous increase in adolescent and young adult girls presenting at gender clinics (although actually I think the Daily Fail's figures are wrong). This isn't about blue brains in female bodies, because the whole pink brain blue brain stuff is so much hogwash. This is a serious social and psychological problem, and the way it's being managed at present is nothing short of a scandal.
 
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Anecdotally? Like eleven? Maybe before that but I lost track of most of the kids I knew in primary school. First year of middle school and up there were a couple groups of kids that all ended up generally not-straight. I’ve heard a fair few people with similar experiences. I haven’t looked into any proper data so I don’t know how typical it is but I can certainly say it can happen that way.
 
Rolfe said:
(...) (some girls getting prescriptions for testosterone on their second or even first appointment)

(...)The paradox here is that on the one hand anyone who says they're trans, or even muses that they may be trans, is immediatly affirmed as trans, because the child is always right, the child knows best.
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The problem here is that sounds ludicrous because it is ludicrous, and I don’t believe it’s actually true in any but isolated, screwed-up cases. It sounds more like hyperbole and misrepresentation. To the best of my knowledge none of this stuff works that way.
 
Rolfe said:
Then enormous numbers of concerned mothers must be lying their heads off.
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Real documentation is needed. You really can't just collect internet anecdotes and call it sufficient evidence.
 
Rolfe said:
(Yeah, cutting off 13-year-old girls' healthy breasts is good.
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Do you have any evidence that this is happening?

As does the (unpublicised and hotly denied) incidence of women in their twenties realising they made a horrible mistake and trying to go back.
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Perhaps the reason it is unpublicised and hotly denied is the fact that it does not seem very likely. Why would people in their twenties start to regret irreversable treatments that at that moment they have just gotten access to?

Rolfe said:
A bunch of young people experimenting with any sort of presentation isn't exactly unusual.
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The people treating them know that and take that into account.

The trans cult has such a stranglehold on health providers that it has become impossible to say, well hold on a bit, maybe you should explore how you feel without permanently altering your body, at least at first. That's transphobia and conversion therapy.
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No, that is standard practice.

Girls are going to college and immediately being given access to hormones and mastectomies (in the USA on their parents' health insurance) without their parents knowing. All at breakneck speed, without any pause for reflection or reconsideration.
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Do you have any evidence that this is happening?

Treat other psychiatric co-morbidities and discourage actual body modifications for a few years. But that's transphobic.
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No, that is standard practice.

The lawsuits are already beginning.
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Do you have any evidence that this is happening?

Did you look at the statistics? An absolutely enormous increase in adolescent and young adult girls presenting at gender clinics (although actually I think the Daily Fail's figures are wrong).
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Not only do I think Daily Fail's figures are wrong, I think you have a very wrong idea about what happens at those "gender clinics".
 
Really, I'm going to do the classic "do your own research" thing here. It doesn't bother me if you don't believe me, I'm giving you the perspective I've reached after many months of reading about the subject, and knowing some people it's happening to. There are plenty resources out there and I've linked to a good many of them earlier, but all are rejected (apparently unread) on the grounds that "that's a transphobic hate site". Suit yourself.
 
I've just checked the Daily Fail article, and there's some very concerning stuff in there. The nutty percentage figures seem right on the basis of the figures they give. In an eight-year period from 2010, there has been a 45x increase in referrals of girls compared to a 12x increase in referrals of boys. (40 to 1806 versus 57 to 713.)

Although it doesn't say, as these are official figures from the NHS, I think they must be referring to the Tavistock clinic. As it has been Tavistock staff who have been expressing concerns, this seems likely, and I don't know if there are any other NHS gender clinics that deal with minors.

It can be difficult when reading accounts on the internet to know where the cases being described actually are, but many of the really appalling ones do indeed seem to originate in the USA and Canada. However there are substantial numbers of UK mothers with very similar stories. Clinics seem terrified to row back on any of this for fear of being attacked by the trans lobby as transphobic, as that seems to be a career-killing allegation these days.

One very telling phrase in the article reveals a lot. "Last night, a source in the Government Equalities Office, which handles policies on 'women, sexual orientation and transgender equality', said: 'There has been a substantial increase in the number of individuals assigned female at birth being referred to the NHS. There is evidence that this trend is happening in other countries as well."

This is straight out of the trans cult playbook. We aren't boys and girls any more, we're "assigned at birth". The gender fairy (usually said to be the doctor or the midwife) arbitrarily "assigns" a gender, and quite often she seems to get it wrong. In this way AGP men who transition in late middle age after a successful business career, marriage and fathering several children, claim that they have "always" been female, it was just that pesky gender fairy who didn't notice the pink brain. Or soul. Or something. The penis and testicles had nothing to do with it of course because we all know women can have these too.

So of course these men, who make up the vast bulk of the trans activists, wish only the best for those who come after them, the "trans kids". They've been lobbying governments and organisations for a decade to recognise this viewpoint, and to reject any other perspective as bigoted and hateful. Even though they themselves have had sexual relationships and fathered children, and most of them decide to keep their male genitalia after they've transitioned, they're really, really supportive of children undergoing sterilising medication and major plastic surgery.

Who on earth says "assigned female at birth"? The trans cult, that's who. And the organisations that have fallen for their lobbying hook, line, sinker and rowboat. Including every single political party in the UK.
 
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Yeah, when they were first figuring out how to do nose and chin jobs they looked pretty raunchy too. The disrespect in that twitter thread is palpable. These are grown-ass trans men being called ‘poor girls’ by a bunch of internet tourists.

There are no barriers whatsoever to understanding the scars, drawbacks and potential failures of phalloplasty surgery. Lots of FTM folks never go for it cause it’s not great. What’s your point? It looks gross to you so it’s a horrible tragedy?
 
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