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Cont: The Trump Presidency IX: Nein, Nein!

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alfaniner said:
What? No tweets yet today? I'm wondering if they have to physically restrain him.
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There's nothing on his calendar today. I think they leave the schedule blank when all they would have for an entry would be "Mmmm! Nurse Parker says we have double chocolate pudding for lunch, today. Can't wait!"
 
Paul2 said:
I can't believe I'm going to link to an article in the Daily Caller - gulp - but they have a video posted up of Keith Ellison, deputy chair of the DNC, wearing a t-shirt that says "yo no creo en fronteras" (I don't believe in borders). Linky

To be clear, it's the video I'm accepting here, not anything else at that link.

ETA: One person wearing one t-shirt does not a political party policy position make, but Ellison is certainly not on the anarchist fringe. So this makes me wonder if there are other Dems, not fringe types, who would adopt this position, too.
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Wow, that's crazy that he would wear that shirt. I have no idea why he did, but it was really stupid. That's really annoying.
 
Belz... said:
If you can ignore the law when you see it as unjust, others can ignore it even if you see that law as just. I didn't think that would be controversial.
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"The law" is not one thing. There are laws, plural. The segregation laws were unjust laws, period. Unjust laws almost exist to be broken when possible, as far as I see it.

I think laws requiring permits for protests are unjust. If alt-righters want to hold a protest without first getting a permit, I don't take issue with the "no permit" part of them protesting.

I don't think that's me doing this:

Which sounds like another way to ignore the grievances of the opponent and ignore the law whenever it's convenient.
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Breaking unjust laws, especially openly and with a willingness to deal with the consequences, is a matter of principal, not convenience.
 
Apparently it's too hot in DC today for him to golf. He was supposed to give a FEMA-type update about a half hour ago. Is this a case where "no news" is "significant news that's not yet revealed"?
 
kellyb said:
I don't know how rightwing messaging can be defeated. The causes of it's effectiveness are:

1) republican "elites" who lie big and lie often
2) a voter base with a religious-type "faith" in the GOP and anything that seems hyper "conservative", and little in the way of critical thinking skills
3) commercial media selling outrage-inducing confirmation bias more than anything else

I might be missing a few things, but I think those are the biggest ones.

How do you defeat that?
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Education?

Have real life Will McAvoy become required watching?
 
Paul2 said:
I can't believe I'm going to link to an article in the Daily Caller - gulp - but they have a video posted up of Keith Ellison, deputy chair of the DNC, wearing a t-shirt that says "yo no creo en fronteras" (I don't believe in borders). Linky

To be clear, it's the video I'm accepting here, not anything else at that link.

ETA: One person wearing one t-shirt does not a political party policy position make, but Ellison is certainly not on the anarchist fringe. So this makes me wonder if there are other Dems, not fringe types, who would adopt this position, too.
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Probably needs another thread especially with Nov coming but the Democrats are so bad at messaging. Here is the actual sentiment behind that position. I had to go through a couple pages of links to the alt-right echo chamber to get to it.

The Hill Op Ed
In a recent interview, Ellison suggested that because corporations “can go back and forth across the border seeking out the lowest wages,” regular people should be able to “go back and forth across the border seeking out the highest wages.” Not only is this statement in itself completely detached from reality, but it seems to suggest that if we cannot have wide open borders, then we must not have free trade at all. These remarks come just weeks after Ellison wore a shirt that read “yo no creo en fronteras,” which in English translates into “I do not believe in borders.”
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Probably needs another thread especially with Nov coming but the Democrats are so bad at messaging. Here is the actual sentiment behind that position. I had to go through a couple pages of links to the alt-right echo chamber to get to it.

The Hill Op Ed
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That sentiment is even worse. LOL

I've never been all that impressed by Ellison, though, to be honest. He's done a lot of stuff over the years that's led me to believe he's one of those politicians who will say anything to score brownie points with the grassroots, who he does not actually even understand, and you never know what he actually thinks.
 
Michael Moore Thinks Donald Trump Wrote NYTimes Op-Ed Piece

Asked if he knew the identity of the anonymous New York Times op-ed leaker in Trump’s circle, Moore said: “No, but if you want me to make a wild guess, Trump wrote it or one of his minions wrote it. He’s the master of distraction. He’s the King of the Misdirect.

Moore added, “To have someone who appears to be an idiot beat the smartest person ever to run for the president of the United States, that takes some evil genius and for him to outsmart us is part of our pain."

http://www.showbiz411.com/2018/09/1...ts-us-to-believe-there-are-adults-in-the-room (Sept 15, 2018)
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I kind of doubt it, but I suppose it's possible Trump wrote the op-ed and punked The New York Times. Outsmarted by the evil genius.
 
Dread Pirate Roberts said:
Bill Maher talked about that on his latest show. I saw it passing through the living room this morning. This is part of it:

https://www.mediaite.com/tv/bill-maher-blasts-dems-for-not-rebuking-socialism-charges-from-gop-even-crickets-make-more-noise/
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I think Maher's just being silly there. I think Dems are handling the socialism thing just fine. The GOP shot itself in the foot with the "OMG socialism!" fearmongering during the Obama years. Such charges are somewhere between "powerless" and "kind of helpful" now at this point.
 
kellyb said:
The segregation laws were unjust laws, period.
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I'm sure those who defended them didn't think so.

I think laws requiring permits for protests are unjust.
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So do I, but the way to fight unjust laws is to get them changed.

Breaking unjust laws, especially openly and with a willingness to deal with the consequences, is a matter of principal, not convenience.
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Don't we usually call that vigilantism?
 
kellyb said:
I think Maher's just being silly there. I think Dems are handling the socialism thing just fine. The GOP shot itself in the foot with the "OMG socialism!" fearmongering during the Obama years. Such charges are somewhere between "powerless" and "kind of helpful" now at this point.
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Honestly, I rather suspect that many Democrats, especially the newer generation, mix up socialism and Democratic Socialism (which can be described just as well by the moniker "Democratic Capitalism"), directly because of the GOP's horrid misuse. How does that work? The Democratic Party (or even just the Democratic Socialists if the GOP is dissembling a little less than usual) says they support X, Y, and Z. The average Democrat actually hears that (and sometimes the average Republican does, too, albeit usually with blatant spin and misrepresentation). The GOP falsely call those things that frequently aren't even remotely socialist, "socialism." Without having directly looked into what socialism is and seriously analyzing whether the claims are true, the average person (not just Democrats) accepts that lie, so they associate socialism with X, Y, and Z.
 
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kellyb said:
I think Maher's just being silly there. I think Dems are handling the socialism thing just fine. The GOP shot itself in the foot with the "OMG socialism!" fearmongering during the Obama years. Such charges are somewhere between "powerless" and "kind of helpful" now at this point.
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No offense, what you think doesn't matter. It's what voters who are not locked down thinks that counts. How is it playing with them? This is a poll testable question.
 
LSSBB said:
No offense, what you think doesn't matter. It's what voters who are not locked down thinks that counts. How is it playing with them? This is a poll testable question.
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What I think is based on the polls.

http://theweek.com/speedreads/790039/socialism-more-popular-than-capitalism-among-democrats

https://www.nationalreview.com/2017...te-george-barna-tradition-liberty-capitalism/
But those differences don’t reveal the greatest divide and danger to America’s future. “The most alarming result, according to [George] Barna, was that four out of every ten adults say they prefer socialism to capitalism,” the ACFI noted in its commentary on the poll.
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http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...oung-socialism-capitalism-20180520-story.html
Sixty-one percent of Democrats take a positive view of socialism — and so do 25 percent of Republicans.
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Aridas said:
Honestly, I rather suspect that many Democrats, especially the newer generation, mix up socialism and Democratic Socialism (which can be described just as well by the moniker "Democratic Capitalism"), directly because of the GOP's horrid misuse. How does that work? The Democratic Party (or even just the Democratic Socialists if the GOP is dissembling a little less than usual) says they support X, Y, and Z. The average Democrat actually hears that (and sometimes the average Republican does, too, albeit usually with blatant spin and misrepresentation). The GOP falsely call those things that frequently aren't even remotely socialist, "socialism." Without having directly looked into what socialism is and seriously analyzing whether the claims are true, the average person (not just Democrats) accepts that lie, so they associate socialism with X, Y, and Z.
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The word "socialism" has had an elusive, slippery definition since Orwell's time.

http://www.orwell.ru/library/essays/politics/english/e_polit
The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of regime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using that word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different.
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