Atheists destroy churches, attack the faithful

[Darat]

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/vVkoPPU.gif[/qimg]

Wait, that was a serious request, wasn't it?

It was a hopeful post, every the optimist...

Part of TBD's misunderstanding about Chinese religious beliefs is I think because of how they are expressed and embedded in everyday life. They don't have what we would recognise as a hierarchical system or proscribed doctrine as we are used to seeing in religions such as Christianity.

China (majority population) do not view religions beliefs as something separate to their culture and society, over centuries religious beliefs have been incorporated into the state itself and into culture and society so they become one and the same. This is why expressions of a say Christianity with big red crosses on top of buildings in clear site really jars them, they see this as an external threat and it is being imposed by external powers. They probably wouldn't consider the fact that most of their buildings and layouts will have been developed with more than a nod to their religious beliefs as the same because it is so deeply embedded in society and the why they think.

(Of course the above is a huge generalisation to try and explain a broad point about a very nuanced topic.)

 

[aleCcowaN]

Part of TBD's misunderstanding about Chinese religious beliefs is I think because of how they are expressed and embedded in everyday life. They don't have what we would recognise as a hierarchical system or proscribed doctrine as we are used to seeing in religions such as Christianity.

But what TBD says comes from unimpeachable sources:

 

[The Big Dog]

It was a hopeful post, every the optimist...

Part of TBD's misunderstanding about Chinese religious beliefs is I think because of how they are expressed and embedded in everyday life. They don't have what we would recognise as a hierarchical system or proscribed doctrine as we are used to seeing in religions such as Christianity.

China (majority population) do not view religions beliefs as something separate to their culture and society, over centuries religious beliefs have been incorporated into the state itself and into culture and society so they become one and the same. This is why expressions of a say Christianity with big red crosses on top of buildings in clear site really jars them, they see this as an external threat and it is being imposed by external powers. They probably wouldn't consider the fact that most of their buildings and layouts will have been developed with more than a nod to their religious beliefs as the same because it is so deeply embedded in society and the why they think.

(Of course the above is a huge generalisation to try and explain a broad point about a very nuanced topic.)

My misunderstanding? That is laughable.

Now if I was going to write about Chinese religion in everyday life, in 2018, I can assure you that someone who understood the issue would start and end with the degree of control the Chinese Communist Party has over the country, and someone who understood the issue would address the 2016 change in policy where among other things Xi mandated that all members of the party be atheists, Firm Marxist Atheists, which are the actual changes that led to the actual pogrom and actual human rights abuses that are the subject of this thread.

That would be something that someone who understood the issues would discuss, front and center.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

China is actively supporting Confucianism, going so far as to finance over a thousand institutes worldwide to spread its message.
Calling a government Atheist that spends tax dollars to spread religion doesn't sound reasonable to me.

 

[Myriad]

China is actively supporting Confucianism, going so far as to finance over a thousand institutes worldwide to spread its message.
Calling a government Atheist that spends tax dollars to spread religion doesn't sound reasonable to me.

Dont'cha get it? Confucians are atheists because they don't believe in Jeee-zus!

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Dont'cha get it? Confucians are atheists because they don't believe in Jeee-zus!

my mistake.

 

[The Big Dog]

China is actively supporting Confucianism, going so far as to finance over a thousand institutes worldwide to spread its message.
Calling a government Atheist that spends tax dollars to spread religion doesn't sound reasonable to me.

Who sees a massive flaw in this reasoning? Hint "A."

 

[The Big Dog]

BEIJING — China is rolling out new rules on religious activity on the internet amid an ongoing crackdown on churches, mosques and other institutions by the officially atheist Communist Party.

Anyone wishing to provide religious instruction or similar services online must apply by name and be judged morally fit and politically reliable, according to draft regulations posted online late Monday by the State Administration for Religious Affairs.

China tightens online religious activity rules

I just realized that my posts in this thread would undoubtedly subject me to incarceration and forced acceptance of Firm Marxist Atheism in China.

 

[MRC_Hans]

My misunderstanding? That is laughable.

Now if I was going to write about Chinese religion in everyday life, in 2018, I can assure you that someone who understood the issue would start and end with the degree of control the Chinese Communist Party has over the country, and someone who understood the issue would address the 2016 change in policy where among other things Xi mandated that all members of the party be atheists, Firm Marxist Atheists, which are the actual changes that led to the actual pogrom and actual human rights abuses that are the subject of this thread.

That would be something that someone who understood the issues would discuss, front and center.

I'm afraid I missed the post where you documented the highlighted part. Would you be so kind as to point me to it?

Hans

 

[Darat]

My misunderstanding? That is laughable.

Now if I was going to write about Chinese religion in everyday life, in 2018, I can assure you that someone who understood the issue would start and end with the degree of control the Chinese Communist Party has over the country, and someone who understood the issue would address the 2016 change in policy where among other things Xi mandated that all members of the party be atheists, Firm Marxist Atheists, which are the actual changes that led to the actual pogrom and actual human rights abuses that are the subject of this thread.

That would be something that someone who understood the issues would discuss, front and center.

All I can do is lead you to the water - the rest is up to you.

 

[The Big Dog]

What is causing religious people to be persecuted by the Official Atheist state? Religion of course. I did respond to your comment about sinicize of course, shall I quote the article again?

No, I will go one better!

“Xi said that the key to the CCP’s policy on religious affairs is “the way of guidance,” which should be “effective, powerful, and proactive.” Chinese youth in particular, Xi said, must be guided to “believe in science, study science, spread science, and to have a correct worldview.” As for CCP members, they “should be firm Marxist atheists and must never find their values and beliefs in any religion,” Xi added.”

https://thediplomat.com/2017/10/chinese-communist-party-vows-to-sinicize-religions-in-china/

Firm Marxist atheists

Golly folks, I wonder what Sinicize means in the context of the pogrom against Religious in China. Pro tip: atheism.

I'm afraid I missed the post where you documented the highlighted part. Would you be so kind as to point me to it?

Hans

My pleasure!

 

[fagin]

Where do you see the word 'mandated'?

I do see 'guided'. which isn't the same thing.

 

[David Mo]

My pleasure!

Your pleasure is unjustified. This text makes reference to what the members of CCP must be. Nothing about the whole society. The article 36 of Chinese Constitution have been put here that claims a "religious tolerance" towards any cult that doesn't disturb the "communist" government.
You can say that tolerance is scarcely tolerant in China. May be. Like the Communist Party is scarcely communist and Mr. Xi's Marxism is scarcely Marxist.
In China "Communism", "Marxism" and "atheism" are sheer propaganda. Just like your pamphlets in this forum, to give you an idea.

By the way, when are you going to answer my objections? You seem a little forgetful. Perhaps they make you a little uncomfortable...

 

[The Big Dog]

Where do you see the word 'mandated'?

I do see 'guided'. which isn't the same thing.

As for CCP members, they “should be firm Marxist atheists and must never find their values and beliefs in any religion,” Xi added.

 

[David Mo]

...and must never find their values and beliefs in any religion,” Xi added.”

It is a good idea. I subscribe it.

 

[Dr. Keith]

As for CCP members, they “should be firm Marxist atheists and must never find their values and beliefs in any religion,” Xi added.

Should = mandate?

If the president told you that you should be atheist, would that change your beliefs? Would you then be an atheist?

Heck, even if the president mandated that you be an atheist, would you then be an atheist?

Do you think that is how religion and belief works?

 

[The Big Dog]

Should = mandate?

If the president told you that you should be atheist, would that change your beliefs? Would you then be an atheist?

Heck, even if the president mandated that you be an atheist, would you then be an atheist?

Do you think that is how religion and belief works?

HI! we are talking about China, are we not? (answer, yes we are)

Is China known for, among other things, putting a million Muslims in reeducation camps? Yes. Was their abusive treatment of religious the subject of a recent scathing human rights report? Yep!

Is religious persecution in China A Symptom Of Xi's Consolidation Of Power? Oh hell yes

As such, when Xi says the CCP "should" do something and "must not" do something? Yeah, y'all better do what he says.

Nice, tho, that skeptics can quibble about words in a thread about one of the worst human rights violations since the Cultural revolution.

Sure they through a million muslims into camps, but on the other hand TBD used the word "mandate' and that is what we really need to focus on, because I really did not like that word.

 

[Dr. Keith]

HI! we are talking about China, are we not? (answer, yes we are)

Is China known for, among other things, putting a million Muslims in reeducation camps? Yes. Was their abusive treatment of religious the subject of a recent scathing human rights report? Yep!

Is religious persecution in China A Symptom Of Xi's Consolidation Of Power? Oh hell yes

As such, when Xi says the CCP "should" do something and "must not" do something? Yeah, y'all better do what he says.

Nice, tho, that skeptics can quibble about words in a thread about one of the worst human rights violations since the Cultural revolution.

Sure they through a million muslims into camps, but on the other hand TBD used the word "mandate' and that is what we really need to focus on, because I really did not like that word.

So a Chinese official who was religious prior to Xi's shouldate is now an atheist?

Again, is that how you think beliefs work?

I can't tell if you don't understand the word "atheist" or if you can't understand that a Chinese official may be just as committed to his faith as you are?

 

[The Big Dog]

So a Chinese official who was religious prior to Xi's shouldate is now an atheist?

Again, is that how you think beliefs work?

I can't tell if you don't understand the word "atheist" or if you can't understand that a Chinese official may be just as committed to his faith as you are?

Cool! We are off the "mandate" part.

Now we are on to "how you think beliefs work?" Because how TBD thinks they work is "TEH KEY!"

as opposed to, oh I dunno, asking how the Chinese think it works, and how they think it works is that they make people renounce their faith, blow up their churches, restrict their ability to use the internet and put them in reeducation camps.

Oh and they kill tens of thousands of Falun Gong.

 

[dann]

Lets go to the Atheist Bible.... little red book version?
(...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_Kapital

I still assume that this is supposed to mean that Karl Marx's Capital - A Critique of Political Economy is the "Atheist Bible," but not only does Karl Marx have surprisingly little to say about churches, as I already pointed out and quoted in post 250, he also has disappointingly little to say about atheism in the "Atheist Bible." This I all I could find:

In the domain of Political Economy, free scientific inquiry meets not merely the same enemies as in all other domains. The peculiar nature of the materials it deals with, summons as foes into the field of battle the most violent, mean and malignant passions of the human breast, the Furies of private interest. The English Established Church, e.g., will more readily pardon an attack on 38 of its 39 articles than on 1/39 of its income. Now-a-days atheism is culpa levis [a relatively slight sin, c.f. mortal sin], as compared with criticism of existing property relations.
(Preface to the first German edition)

I included an awful lot of context in the next and last quoation where atheism is mentioned, just to make sure that you don't miss anything:

Dr. Horne, Bishop of Norwich, reproves Adam Smith, because in a published letter to Mr. Strahan, he “embalmed his friend David” (sc. Hume); because he told the world how “Hume amused himself on his deathbed with Lucian and Whist,” and because he even had the impudence to write of Hume: “I have always considered him, both in his life-time and since his death, as approaching as nearly to the idea of a perfectly wise and virtuous man, as, perhaps, the nature of human frailty will permit.” The bishop cries out, in a passion: "Is it right in you, Sir, to hold up to our view as 'perfectly wise and virtuous,' the character and conduct of one, who seems to have been possessed with an incurable antipathy to all that is called Religion; and who strained every nerve to explode, suppression and extirpate the spirit of it among men, that its very name, if he could effect it, might no more be had in remembrance?" (l.c., p. 8) "But let not the lovers of truth be discouraged. Atheism cannot be of long continuance." (p. 17.) Adam Smith "had the atrocious wickedness to propagate atheism through the land (viz., by his "Theory of Moral Sentiments"). Upon the whole, Doctor, your meaning is good; but I think you will not succeed this time. You would persuade us, by the example of David Hume, Esq., that atheism is the only cordial for low spirits, and the proper antidote against the fear of death ... You may smile over Babylon in the ruins and congratulate the hardened Pharaoh on the overthrow in the Red Sea." (l. c., pp. 21, 22.) One orthodox individual, amongst Adam Smith’s college friends, writes after his death: “Smith’s well-placed affection for Hume … hindered him from being a Christian. … When he met with honest men whom he liked … he would believe almost anything they said. Had he been a friend of the worthy ingenious Horrox he would have believed that the moon some times disappeared in a clear sky without the interposition of a cloud. … He approached to republicanism in this political principles.” (“The Bee.” By James Anderson, 18 Vols., Vol 3. pp. 166, 165, Edinburgh, 1791-93.)
(Chapter 33: The Modern Theory of Colonisation)

That's how much atheism is mentioned in the alleged "Atheist Bible"!!!