Stormy Daniels sues the President Part II

[Loss Leader]

I think Lanny Davis (Cohen's lawyer) is trying to force Trump to pardon Cohen and his wife, regardless of the political consequences.

Based on Davis' appearance on CNN last night, I don't see this as a possibility. He was very direct in saying that Cohen now thinks Trump is bad for America, "especially after Helsinki." You don't go up to the one man with the ability to pardon you and tell him he's bad for the country. You don't hire a top former Clinton official to negotiate with the Trump White House.

If this is an actual strategy, it's insane. It really appears that Cohen wants to just go to jail so he can get out in some reasonable amount of time and see his children again.

 

[The Big Dog]

What is interesting is that the actual agreements with the extortionists were not illegal.

Trump expected that his lawyer he retained should have been able to accomplish a legal purpose in a legal manner.

Unfortunately, as we have been told repeatedly, Cohen was not competent.

 

[The Big Dog]

Cohen's caving on the Federal Election law charges was not just a gift, it was a set up and a scam. Under similar circumstances the FEC ruled that "After reviewing the campaign's financials for four years, the FEC determined last month that money Edwards' aides collected from wealthy donors Rachel "Bunny" Mellon and Fred Baron were "not campaign contribution."

"The words "the purpose" suggests that in order for a conviction, the sole reason for the money would have to be to finance a presidential campaign."

In other words, this was a legal transaction that could have and should have been handled within the bounds of the law. The fact that Cohen might have screwed it up does not create liability for the people he was representing.

Background here: https://www.yahoo.com/gma/john-edwa...-fec-told-121722338--abc-news-topstories.html

 

[jimbob]

Based on Davis' appearance on CNN last night, I don't see this as a possibility. He was very direct in saying that Cohen now thinks Trump is bad for America, "especially after Helsinki." You don't go up to the one man with the ability to pardon you and tell him he's bad for the country. You don't hire a top former Clinton official to negotiate with the Trump White House.

If this is an actual strategy, it's insane. It really appears that Cohen wants to just go to jail so he can get out in some reasonable amount of time and see his children again.

Revenge might be a motive.

There are plenty of stories of Trump treating Cohen with contempt. For example



http://uk.businessinsider.com/trump-ridiculed-michael-cohen-at-his-sons-bar-mitzvah-2018-4?r=US&IR=T

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

If that is the case, he is doing it badly: Mueller would much rather he didn't give the Trump team warning about what he is going to tell the prosecutors.

Someone involved with Trump has hired a lawyer who has done something to harm his client, you say?

 

[Trebuchet]

Cohen's lawyer was on the Teevee this morning saying Cohen would refuse to accept a pardon.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm not so sure about that. Yes Trump lied but civil suits against POTUS is a tricky subject.

Established case law is not on his side. Clinton had to get deposed in a civil suit.

 

[Loss Leader]

Trump expected that his lawyer he retained should have been able to accomplish a legal purpose in a legal manner.

Unfortunately, as we have been told repeatedly, Cohen was not competent.

Wrong. It wasn't Cohen's job to report campaign contributions to the FEC. Cohen didn't even have a position with the campaign. It was the candidate's job.

"The words "the purpose" suggests that in order for a conviction, the sole reason for the money would have to be to finance a presidential campaign."

In other words, this was a legal transaction that could have and should have been handled within the bounds of the law. The fact that Cohen might have screwed it up does not create liability for the people he was representing.

If it weren't for the evidence, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, Cohen's payment to Stormy Daniels came eleven days before the election and it suppressed information that might have been damaging to the candidate. Juries are allowed to make reasonable inferences based on circumstance. It's a pretty reasonable inference that this action was taken for the purpose of helping Trump as a candidate, not as a person.

The manner in which it could have been done within the bounds of the law was for the candidate to report the gift. Even to report it late or after the election would have at least mitigated some of this. Trump could still refile documents with the FEC today showing the gift. He didn't. He didn't do it after the election, or when the story broke, or when the search warrants were executed.

Trump's only possible defense would have been to show evidence that he directed his campaign staff to report the gift as soon as he became aware of it. But Trump himself stated that he repaid the gift personally - so he knew about it, but chose not to report it. He's still choosing not to report it right now.

And, incidentally, Trump repaying the gift personally (rather than the campaign repaying it) is meaningless. In one case, Cohen made an unreported gift. In the other, Trump himself made the unreported gift.

If anything, it's actually worse for Trump personally that he repaid the gift than if he hadn't.

 

[The Big Dog]

Wrong. It wasn't Cohen's job to report campaign contributions to the FEC. Cohen didn't even have a position with the campaign. It was the candidate's job.


If it weren't for the evidence, I'd agree with you. Unfortunately, Cohen's payment to Stormy Daniels came eleven days before the election and it suppressed information that might have been damaging to the candidate. Juries are allowed to make reasonable inferences based on circumstance. It's a pretty reasonable inference that this action was taken for the purpose of helping Trump as a candidate, not as a person.

The manner in which it could have been done within the bounds of the law was for the candidate to report the gift. Even to report it late or after the election would have at least mitigated some of this. Trump could still refile documents with the FEC today showing the gift. He didn't. He didn't do it after the election, or when the story broke, or when the search warrants were executed.

Trump's only possible defense would have been to show evidence that he directed his campaign staff to report the gift as soon as he became aware of it. But Trump himself stated that he repaid the gift personally - so he knew about it, but chose not to report it. He's still choosing not to report it right now.

And, incidentally, Trump repaying the gift personally (rather than the campaign repaying it) is meaningless. In one case, Cohen made an unreported gift. In the other, Trump himself made the unreported gift.

If anything, it's actually worse for Trump personally that he repaid the gift than if he hadn't.

If Cohen had done his job properly, any question about whether it had to be reported would have been utterly avoided.

Your arguments appear to be laboring under the misapprehension that the funds were campaign contributions. Edwards lawyers proved otherwise.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Cohen's lawyer was on the Teevee this morning saying Cohen would refuse to accept a pardon.

I recall the attorney on the Opening Arguments podcast opined one cannot decline a pardon.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

I recall the attorney on the Opening Arguments podcast opined one cannot decline a pardon.

There is a logical inconsistency here ...
... but it wouldn't be the first one when it comes to the Law.

 

[Matthew Best]

Trump expected that his lawyer he retained should have been able to accomplish a legal purpose in a legal manner.

Unfortunately, as we have been told repeatedly, Cohen was not competent.

If Cohen was so incompetent, why did Trump hire him?

 

[jimbob]

I thought I'd revisit the predictions of a couple of pundits from the first part of this thread to see how they panned out

And helping a client violate campaign finance laws is ethical? The only way Cohen doesn't go down(disbarred at the least) is for the rule of law to no longer matter.

that is what they said about Edwards too, didn't happen. Extremely unlikely to happen here.

Maybe a fine from the FEC, but don't bother holding your breath

 

[Bob001]

A history of the the lies about this by Trump et al:

But this week’s guilty plea by Cohen offers indisputable evidence that Trump and his allies have been deliberately dishonest at every turn in their statements regarding payments to Daniels and Playboy model Karen McDougal.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=329130&page=54&

 

[Loss Leader]

If Cohen had done his job properly, any question about whether it had to be reported would have been utterly avoided.

Just for fun, please explain what Cohen could have done differently (eleven days before the election) to avoid the question of a campaign finance violation.

Your arguments appear to be laboring under the misapprehension that the funds were campaign contributions. Edwards lawyers proved otherwise.

Edwards' lawyers proved no such thing. The gifts made to Edwards were over a two year period. In comparison, Cohen's gift to Trump came just eleven days before an election. Gifts to Edwards were used for the support of his child over the course of years. In comparison, Cohen's gift did not help satisfy a legal obligation for Trump to support his child. The gifts never had anything to do with a federal election because Edwards never got that far. He withdrew during the Democratic primaries. In comparison, Cohen's gift was made after Trump had secured the nomination and just a week and a half before the general election.

In any case, Edwards' lawyers did not prove much of anything. The jury did find Edwards not guilty of one count but the jury was hung on five other counts. The prosecution declined to retry him on those counts. But declining to retry a person is in no way the same as him being found not guilty.

The only thing even vaguely instructive about the Edwards case for this situation is that federal prosecutors were not bound by the opinion of the FEC. Even though the FEC chose to see no campaign finance violation, the justice department was free to ignore that and ask a jury to make that decision.

 

[Elagabalus]

If Cohen was so incompetent, why did Trump hire him?

Tbf, this could be a 'thing' with him. He hired and fired Omarosa 4 times.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Just for fun, please explain what Cohen could have done differently (eleven days before the election) to avoid the question of a campaign finance violation.

Not pay hush money to keep stories about a candidate before an election quiet.

 

[Segnosaur]

Based on Davis' appearance on CNN last night, I don't see this as a possibility. He was very direct in saying that Cohen now thinks Trump is bad for America...
If this is an actual strategy, it's insane. It really appears that Cohen wants to just go to jail so he can get out in some reasonable amount of time and see his children again.

Revenge might be a motive.
There are plenty of stories of Trump treating Cohen with contempt.

Or maybe its a grasp at respectability. He knows he's going down for crimes, but figures he'd rather be seen as "the hero that implicated a corrupt president" instead of just another co-conspirator.

Or maybe money is an issue... I believe another poster has pointed out that a 'gofundme' page was created to pay for his legal expenses. Perhaps he realizes that he could collect money if he actually cooperates with Mueller than if he stays silent. (Heck, if I were American I might consider throwing a few bucks his way... I don't trust Cohen but anything that hurts Trump is good.)

 

[jimbob]

Or maybe its a grasp at respectability. He knows he's going down for crimes, but figures he'd rather be seen as "the hero that implicated a corrupt president" instead of just another co-conspirator.

Or maybe money is an issue... I believe another poster has pointed out that a 'gofundme' page was created to pay for his legal expenses. Perhaps he realizes that he could collect money if he actually cooperates with Mueller than if he stays silent. (Heck, if I were American I might consider throwing a few bucks his way... I don't trust Cohen but anything that hurts Trump is good.)

I'm sure it's not an either or.

There was a rock solid case against him.

Trump had thrown him under the bus one too many times and demonstrated utter contempt.

Maybe he was also just tired of the whole illegality and wanted to rediscover his self-respect (related to your first point).
​

I can see how one might end up doing more and more sleezy stuff and when one is found out, decide to use it to turn oneself around.

 

[blutoski]

Or maybe its a grasp at respectability. He knows he's going down for crimes, but figures he'd rather be seen as "the hero that implicated a corrupt president" instead of just another co-conspirator.

I was thinking this too. Not sure yet, but he's approaching the age where salvaging reputation is valuable.

Or maybe money is an issue... I believe another poster has pointed out that a 'gofundme' page was created to pay for his legal expenses. Perhaps he realizes that he could collect money if he actually cooperates with Mueller than if he stays silent. (Heck, if I were American I might consider throwing a few bucks his way... I don't trust Cohen but anything that hurts Trump is good.)

I get the impression Cohen won't see a nickel of the gofundme. At least not directly: It's for his lawyer.