Where is the Common Ground?

[Mumbles]

If fake news would stop lying about everything political under the sun the problems would go away. For example, the whole Ferguson debacle was caused by fake news. No fake news, no Ferguson.

In addition to what jimbob said about the outright white supremacism of Ferguson's city government, and the DoJ's findings, it's worth noting again that the police responded to black people mourning a death by driving up in mine-resistant vehicles, wrecking memorials, and terrorizing the mourners by threatening them with shotguns and police dogs. They were also found to have outright attacked individual black people just walking home from work, and to have engaged in repeated, mass constitutional violations, such as imposing a rule that said that protestors were not allowed to stand in place for more than a few seconds. And it was these movies and photos, much more than anything else, that got Ferguson international attention.

They also openly attacked journalists at Huffington Post, the Washington Post, and RT America, even when these journalists were sitting in a local McDonalds writing and uploading stories - which, of course, earned them even more outrage and coverage. And yet, when any actual riots broke out, it was the protestors who protected property, while police were absent. The idea that all of this, recorded on video, and settled in courts, is "fake news" is patently absurd.

This is another "no common ground" issues. Police shouldn't attack entire communities that they're supposed to protect, the end.

ETA: and as I had said at the time, had police not spent years showing that they were enemies of the local black community, and then turned openly violent towards them, Ferguson would likely not have become a flashpoint.

 

[Minoosh]

If fake news would stop lying about everything political under the sun the problems would go away. For example, the whole Ferguson debacle was caused by fake news. No fake news, no Ferguson.

And where do you find a piece that aggressively explores the misinformation that fed into early reports? In the Washington Post.

‘Hands up, don’t shoot’ was built on a lie

It was then that Johnson said Brown stopped, turned around with his hands up and said, “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!” And, like that, “hands up, don’t shoot” became the mantra of a movement. But it was wrong, built on a lie.

Still:

Yet this does not diminish the importance of the real issues unearthed in Ferguson by Brown’s death. ... the false Ferguson narrative stuck because of concern over a distressing pattern of other police killings of unarmed African American men and boys around the time of Brown’s death.

This Post piece brought 5,000 comments. Not exactly an attempt to sweep things under the rug.

Would Fox or Breitbart works so hard to correct flawed initial coverage? I don't think so, but if you have examples I'd be happy to see them.

Meanwhile CNN is so "fake" that Trump is looking up 3-day-old CNN clips to feed his Twitter obsession

 

[kellyb]

Which is why the federal government should be reduced in size. The less important it is in our daily lives, the less consuming these political differences are.

"You liberals are upset about our anarchocapitalist agenda? The thing to do about that is make society even more anarchocapitalistic!"

 

[kellyb]

I think those in the thread (PhantonWolf and others) who pointed out that the common ground can't be found because it simply doesn't exist are mostly right.

 

[uke2se]

Ok so how do we marginalize trump supporters? Who currently poll at 40%.

By mending the system so that the 60% wins elections.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I think those in the thread (PhantonWolf and others) who pointed out that the common ground can't be found because it simply doesn't exist are mostly right.

It'd actually rather sad to see. Here is NZ there is a lot of common ground between the main two Parties, they both agree that Public Health Care is important to the country, having a strong public education system, making sure that people have a place to live, that they have security when out of work. In fact there are few big things that the parties don't agree on, there is even pretty much a consensus on Abortion and Gay Marriage, with our "Right Wing" Party having introduced the later.

Where the disagreement happens is over the details. How should schools be funded? Should people on the dole be dope tested? What age limit should be on 100% subsidized Doctor Visits? Should people be moved out of high value State Homes so they can be sold off to pay for building several lowers cost ones? Should we focus more on rehabilitation and education of prisoners in Jails?

We don't have the fundamental disagreements of what is right for the people of the country, just on how we're going to achieve that. In the US the split is so big that the sides can't even agree on what the fundamental requirements to create a good society are, let alone getting into how to do them.

It's like, here, we're arguing about the colour of the hire car we want to have while on our holiday, while you lot are still arguing about who, if anyone, even gets to go on the holiday, and even if the holiday is a good idea at all.

 

[kellyb]

It'd actually rather sad to see. Here is NZ there is a lot of common ground between the main two Parties, they both agree that Public Health Care is important to the country, having a strong public education system, making sure that people have a place to live, that they have security when out of work.

It's like, here, we're arguing about the colour of the hire car we want to have while on our holiday, while you lot are still arguing about who, if anyone, even gets to go on the holiday, and even if the holiday is a good idea at all.

I think a whole lot of my fellow Americans are still basically fighting the Cold War in the back of their minds. They really subconsciously seem to think even talking about who gets to go on holiday is pandering to "communism," and even seriously considering it themselves is a form of treason. We Americans have been deeply propagandized to the point of (no hyperbole, sadly) brainwashed for a really, really long time.

This is a real quote from a former CIA director:

We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.

And from just this May, Richard Stengel, who went right from being the managing editor of Time Magazine, directly to work for US State Department, here talking to the Council on Foreign Relations:

https://twitter.com/williamcraddick/status/995026256214179840

Basically, every country creates their own narrative story and, you know, my old job at the State Department was what people used to joke as the ‘chief propagandist’ job...I’m not against propaganda. Every country does it, and they have to do it to their own population, and I don’t necessarily think it’s that awful.

This extreme misinformation is not limited to foreign policy in the US, and it's not just one or the other of the two establishment parties that does it.

And the news really isn't even hardly the news, when you're talking about the overall narratives from the major outlets.
Just look at the headlines of the front page of BlueNews:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/?noredirect=on

Or RedNews:
http://www.foxnews.com/

And within facebook and reddit and google's increasingly weird algorithms, the effect keeps getting amplified.

No wonder people seem to be increasingly drifting off into either soothing online performative narcissism of selfies and food pictures, or, alternately, obsessively clinging to demonstrably false "official narratives" about history, where our civilization is currently at, and where we seem to be going.

Red says global warming is a Chinese hoax, and Blue says you're evil if you don't ban straws. The billionaire class is building bunkers in New Zealand to prepare for the apocalypse. No one person or entity is actually in charge of anything. Anyone who takes a step back to voice an unapproved perspective based on true and real but obscure facts risks being viciously verbally attacked as a lunatic.

Weird times.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Why do you think Medicare and S.S. are referred to as the "third rail" in politics? If those checks stopped coming you would have a revolt.

Nonsense that is what the deficits are for a smoke screen to finally get rid of such rampant socialism. It is socialist and therefore evil and must be stopped.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I don't agree with this opinion. The government should be there to protect our environment, people, food, drugs and more. The government should be there to protect minorities from the persecution of the majority. Government should be there to provide for the general welfare of the public. Government should be there to help the poor, the disabled and those who can't help themselves. Reduction in the size of government only serves to give power to the wealthy and away from the people.

Nonsense it is your job to make sure your medicine isn't made with poison not some government bureaucrat. If they want to use antifreeze and poison people that is their right as manufacturers and should be legal once again.

 

[ponderingturtle]

You would think that they aren't opposed to clean water, food..etc. However, they are applauding the Trump regimes dismantling of EPA and FDA standards.

They are no opposed to those things in theory, just like they are not for poison in medicine, it is just they want to leave it up to god to get there and not do anything to actually insure it happens.

 

[ponderingturtle]

By mending the system so that the 60% wins elections.

Which of course requires far more than 60% to do.

 

[kellyb]

Which of course requires far more than 60% to do.

Not if the system is fixed.

eta:
Or maybe I'm missing your train of thought.

You'd have to just get rid of the electoral college and de-gerrymander the districts to fix the system, I think. Although you have to get more than 60% in order to begin fixing the system. I guess that's what you meant. Sorry!

 

[Mumbles]

They are no opposed to those things in theory, just like they are not for poison in medicine, it is just they want to leave it up to god to get there and not do anything to actually insure it happens.

And many people who vote for them simply say, like back in 2016, "Oh they're just saying that, they won't actually do any of those things they repeatedly said that they'll definitely do."

"Oh, my spouse isn't legally here, but that was just a paperwork problem, they'll take one look and just let him stay, also what about Benghazi?" 2 months later "Oh no, they're deporting my spouse!"

"Oh, the GOP isn't going to take away health care from people that need it, they'll make sure everyone is covered." 6 months later: "They're trying to take away my health care, I need it to live!"

"Oh, I put in work, I deserve this government help, I'm sure they'll just kick off those lazy 'urban' people, not me." 1 year later: "They're taking away my food benefits, what am I going to do?!

"Oh, they're just bringing back jobs, this is great, those regulations don't help anyone." 2 years later "My tap water is on fire!"

Lot of those "take him seriously, not literally" folks didn't seem to realize that taking a vindictive, bigoted idiot seriously means you should assume he'll go way beyond what he first said.

 

[kellyb]

How do you fix the system when the system requires fixing to be fixed?
Do everything you can to get everyone possible on board with getting everyone else on board to push it to the needed 60+%? LOL

 

[Ziggurat]

"You liberals are upset about our anarchocapitalist agenda? The thing to do about that is make society even more anarchocapitalistic!"

Who said anything about anarchocapitalism? Really, kellyb, you should be better than such silly straw men. That would be like calling you a communist if you wanted to expand food stamps. The only question is whether you knew it was ridiculous when you said it, or whether you're really that clueless.

 

[kellyb]

Who said anything about anarchocapitalism? Really, kellyb, you should be better than such silly straw men. That would be like calling you a communist if you wanted to expand food stamps. The only question is whether you knew it was ridiculous when you said it, or whether you're really that clueless.

I'd need you to answer my previous question about where you fall on the libertarian scale of one to ten before I know how to respond to this.

If a one is being perfectly okay with being a member of the ruling elite in Brave New World, and a 10 is Charles and David Koch, where do you fall on the libertarian scale?

 

[Ziggurat]

I'd need you to answer my previous question about where you fall on the libertarian scale of one to ten before I know how to respond to this.

If a one is being perfectly okay with being a member of the ruling elite in Brave New World, and a 10 is Charles and David Koch, where do you fall on the libertarian scale?

The Kochs aren't anarchocapitalists. Nothing I've ever said even suggests that I'm an anarchocapitalist. You don't need to know exactly how libertarian I am in order to know that this was a bull **** claim on your part, and now you're trying to blame me for the fact that you tried to smear me. That's a dick move, kellyb.

But since I suspect you won't stop making bull **** accusations until I answer your silly question, if you're a 4, I'm probably more like a 7. I deserve an apology, but I don't expect to get one.

 

[kellyb]

The Kochs aren't anarchocapitalists. Nothing I've ever said even suggests that I'm an anarchocapitalist. You don't need to know exactly how libertarian I am in order to know that this was a bull **** claim on your part, and now you're trying to blame me for the fact that you tried to smear me. That's a dick move, kellyb.

But since I suspect you won't stop making bull **** accusations until I answer your silly question, if you're a 4, I'm probably more like a 7. I deserve an apology, but I don't expect to get one.

I actually thought you were a 10, and I am sorry.

I consider the Koch's anarchocapitalists. I think they'd prefer for the military and police to be officially privatized, but they don't really mind the trappings of "government" as window dressing, as long as everything important is decided by .01%ers.

 

[Ziggurat]

I actually thought you were a 10, and I am sorry.

Thank you, I appreciate that.

I consider the Koch's anarchocapitalists. I think they'd prefer for the military and police to be officially privatized, but they don't really mind the trappings of "government" as window dressing, as long as everything important is decided by .01%ers.

How much first-hand exposure have you had to the Kochs? Have much have you listened to what they say directly, as opposed to how other people describe them?

 

[JoeMorgue]

I get this thread has already been well... moved on from the original question but is it necessary to categorize people to this degree to establish if there is/should be a "common ground" to meet on?

So what you can find a common ground with somebody who is 60% Post Modern Anarchreformedcapatlist with Sprinkles... but not 70% lord no not 70%