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Intelligent Design

The absense of time is really an absense of reference points. So, once we establish a reference point in the here and now -- for example, it takes 24 hours for the earth to revolve around the sun -- then we can extend that reference point both forwards and backwards ... add infinitum.
You really think so? Guess Einstein and all the astrophysicists since him had it all wrong, huh?

You obviously don't understand the nature of time and space. The concepts you've just described are almost a century obsolete. There is no universal direction of time. The past is not the past for every point in space. An hour isn't an hour for every point in space.
Or, consider this ... If you took the hands and numbers away from a clock, would that clock still exist? Sure it would, you would just have no way of keeping track of time.
For the love of your god, read a book on the subject. Preferably one written in the last 80 years.
 
No, the question is, Was there anything else before the beginning of me? Because if there wasn't, how did "me" come about?
You've changed the question. The original question concerned the state of something where that something doesn't exist. Time before time. Skyscrapers before skyscrapers. Iacchus before Iacchus.

Time seems to be too conceptual for you, lets stick to something more concrete. What skyscrapers were there before the beginning of skyscrapers?
 
You've changed the question. The original question concerned the state of something where that something doesn't exist. Time before time. Skyscrapers before skyscrapers. Iacchus before Iacchus.

Time seems to be too conceptual for you, lets stick to something more concrete. What skyscrapers were there before the beginning of skyscrapers?
The only thing you are referring to here are external reference points. If it was merely a matter of "pure" energy existing before the creation of matter which, I believe is what the Big Bang was all about, then no, there would be no external reference points.
 
The absense of time is really an absense of reference points. So, once we establish a reference point in the here and now -- for example, it takes 24 hours for the earth to revolve around the sun -- then we can extend that reference point both forwards and backwards ... add infinitum.
Then would you say that if there is no reference point of any kind, then time does not exist? You can't extend reference points ad infinitum. You can only extend them back to the Big Bang. That is the first known reference point. You may argue that there were others that we don't know about, but unless you can show that they exist, it is an argument from faith.

Or, consider this ... If you took the hands and numbers away from a clock, would that clock still exist? Sure it would, you would just have no way of keeping track of time.
There would be countless ways of keeping time if clocks didn't exist. In fact, we can even measure time past, billions of years before the invention of clocks. But even with the best of techniques, we can only extrapolate time back to the Big Bang.

And that makes sense. How could you possibly measure time if nothing existed. Your disingenuous argument is based solely on your religious belief that something existed before the universe. Well, that and your near total ignorance of physics, mathematics, cosmology, neurology... really almost all science.

No, the question is, Was there anything else before the beginning of me? Because if there wasn't, how did "me" come about?
No, that is not the question. You began when you began, not before. "You" must be defined the same way in both parts of the sentence.

Now lets test you. Consider the following statement:

"X existed before Y"

For any value of Y (skyscrapers, Iacchus, time etc.) is there always a valid value of X? (This is a yes or no question by the way).
 
You don't remember my posing this rather "implausible idea?"
He wasn't talking about you, Iacchus. There are lots of other ignorant people besides you, like those who believe the stork brings babies. Usually these are children who believe this, and they eventually lose their ignorance about things once they have been educated. Yours is a special case.
 
Then would you say that if there is no reference point of any kind, then time does not exist?
No, because if there comes a point when time does come about, that means it was already in "the works." Which, is my whole argument.
 
No, the question is, Was there anything else before the beginning of me? Because if there wasn't, how did "me" come about?
You're trying to change the question, aren't you?

If we are considering the beginning of the universe, then the question you're posing here is not analogous.

This is because the universe is, by definition, everything there has ever been. There is no "outside." There is no "before." These concepts are meaningless.

And note: in those two statements I used the word "no," not "nothing."
 
No, because if there comes a point when time does come about, that means it was already in "the works." Which, is my whole argument.
There are no "works". Nothing exists before anything exists, including "works".

Your whole argument remains a meaningless statement.
 
There are no "works". Nothing exists before anything exists, including "works".

Your whole argument remains a meaningless statement.
Which is to say, everything just spontaneously appeared out of nothing? Yes, I would rather choose the stork over this. :D
 
Which is to say, everything just spontaneously appeared out of nothing? Yes, I would rather choose "the stork" over this. :D

With current information and evidence...yes. The sum of existance appeared , quite suddenly, on a thursday (it was a thursday, wasn't it?). This was a shock to everyone involved, which, considering that everything was a moten mass of rapidly flinging matter, was a limited number.

The stork was unavailable for comment.
 
With current information and evidence...yes. The sum of existance appeared , quite suddenly, on a thursday (it was a thursday, wasn't it?). This was a shock to everyone involved, which, considering that everything was a moten mass of rapidly flinging matter, was a limited number.

The stork was unavailable for comment.
◊◊◊◊ happens, huh? ... ;)
 
◊◊◊◊ happens, huh? ... :con2:

Not normally. Usually you have to eat stuff to have ◊◊◊◊ happen. And then the ◊◊◊◊ only happens in little doses, hopefully controlled ones.

Now, this process can be hurried (by the use of laxitives), stymed (anti-diareahals) or even stopped altogether (strichnine and cyanide work nicely for that). But volume can only be effected by the volume of food you take in. Or tacos. For some reason tacos actually create more ◊◊◊◊ than one can account for by normal methods.

We asked the FSM to expalin this but he declined our questions.
 
The only thing you are referring to here are external reference points. If it was merely a matter of "pure" energy existing before the creation of matter which, I believe is what the Big Bang was all about, then no, there would be no external reference points.
*sigh*

Iacchus, how do you measure an hour without time?
 

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